Advice please on Styles for cross-platform?
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Graham Wideman [Visio MVP] - 29 Jul 2006 04:17 GMT Folks:
I'd appreciate any pointers, links to web pages etc that give advice on setting up Word Styles to work reliably cross-platform. Ie: On both Mac and Windows. Main concern that I know about is how to specify fonts in a way that works reasonably well.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Graham
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 29 Jul 2006 04:52 GMT Hi Graham:
For the ultimate cross-platform experience, *Leave the damned things alone* is the best advise.
We have a whole website here: www.word.mvps.org It does not really discuss cross-platform issues, because we're too lazy! We tend to say "produce a *good* Word document and it will 'just work' with no issues cross-platform. Produce a badly-formatted document and it will blow up in either place." You're on the right track with "Styles". If you do all of your formatting with Styles, you will get very few problems. If users employ direct formatting, they're in trouble before they leave home!
On both platforms, Microsoft Word has around 140 built-in styles, and around 40 included fonts.
The fonts included on the Macintosh version have been re-coded to Microsoft's specifications (or by Microsoft Typography, in many cases) to match as closely as possible their PC equivalents.
So Rule 1: Use the built-in styles, customising the font sizes and leading for your purpose.
Rule 2: Use the fonts Microsoft provided. Fonts of the same name provided by other companies may/will produce varying results.
Rule 3: Forget bullets and numbering. Bullets and numbering attached to the Heading and List-series styles by someone who knows what they are doing, following Shauna Kelly's methods http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/index.html will arrive and work fine on the Mac.
But unless you define the numbering into the style exactly right, it will blow up when it crosses platform and you will get switches (often, numbers turn to bullets or vice versa). Again: if you know what you are doing, you can fix it in seconds by re-associating the list template with the style. End users who have not been trained will break it every time :-)
Use of PC fonts on the Mac is quite OK, but be aware that the hinting is wrong for the Mac display so they will look bad on-screen. Just drag TTF or OTF fonts into one of the OS X font folders and they will work.
Going the other way, from Mac to PC, has a higher degree of risk. The PC does not understand Mac font suitcases, so you have to dig the individual font files out of the suitcases to use them on the PC. Depending on the font, who made it, and how old it is, the Unicode assignments may be wrong. If they are, all hell breaks loose on the PC :-)
Be aware that much of the "stuff has moved around in my document" carnage cross-platform is produced by the differing printing subsystems. On either platform, Word does not make either the display or the print job: it simply hands the file off to the operating system. All the measurements come from the printer driver in use. There's nothing you can do about this.
If a document is correctly formatted, you will never be aware of the differences: each document will format and paginate and print perfectly. If the document contains blank lines and hard page breaks, allow plenty of extra project schedule, because you will have to laboriously fix it each time it changes platform.
Since I see that you are a Visio MVP, I need to warn you that the Mac Microsoft Office can't cope with most of what Visio can do to it :-) I suggest that you export to PNG. We can import WMF (badly...) but not EMF. EPS is supposed to work, but usually *doesn't*. Nothing to do with hyperlinks or properties will make it across :-) No SVG, no EMZ, and definitely no Macros :-)
Hope this helps -- come back if you need more specifics.
On 29/7/06 1:17 PM, in article uTAu$1rsGHA.4252@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl,
> Folks: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Graham
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John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410
Graham Wideman [Visio MVP] - 29 Jul 2006 06:25 GMT > For the ultimate cross-platform experience, *Leave the damned things > alone* > is the best advise. Hahahahahahha!
John:
Your previous reply (in the longdocs group) made me happy. This one gives me a good laugh as well. You are now up to two beers.
No need to pontificate on the problems that untrained users and not-using-Styles can create. I'm WELL aware of that in general!
But your comments on fonts, and what to expect from the MS ones vs others were very informative, thanks a bunch for those. And yes I was aware of the problems with bullets in general, but not the additional cross-platform wrinkle.
And as for the use of Visio for drawings... over the last couple of weeks I've done a bunch of testing on this going both ways: From Visio to Mac (via Word), and going from graphics formats on Mac into Visio.
On Windows... Word + Visio, a beautiful relationship. Take that doc to Mac Word, and look out for pot-holes!
It is pretty infuriating how we're at 2006+ and STILL the WMF/EMF rendering on Mac *in MS products* like Word makes really stupid mistakes. Meanwhile Adobe seems to be very dedicated to not being able to convert AI or PDF formats *into* EMF (despite the fact they obviously render them in EMF to show them on screen on Windows). [*] For heavens sake, even pasting from AI to Word on Mac looks like a dogs dinner.
But back to Visio -- my tentative conclusion is that there are actually quite a range of Visio drawings that can be usefully paste-specialed into Word on Windows as EMF, and look pretty good on Mac. And even things not rendering exactly right on Mac aren't disturbed, so when the doc comes back to Windows the EMF looks good.
One needs to maintain a list of gotchas though, and they are the kind of thing that regular users are not going to cope with well. Amongst top beefs:
-- The EMF rendering in Mac Word (2004) hides the bottom approx 0.3 inches of the EMF. Workaround is to (in Visio) add some white feature below the actual drawing to force the EMF size to say it's bigger, then use the Word crop feature to crop off the invisible bottom of the EMF.
-- EMF 90-degree (vertical) text gets rendered in the wrong place on Mac Word
-- Special characters (eg symbol font) don't work across platforms (they do in Word text, but not in EMF embedded in Word.)
-- Some fill pattern and color combos don't work quite right
I have to admit, it's making sticking the damn picture in as a TIF (with compression) look pretty attractive.
As for EPS -- yep, forget it.
[*] -- I did manage to get a PDF into a WMF by loading it into AI and saving as WMF (or EMF, don't remember). That loaded nicely into Visio, but when I ungrouped it the text all ran off to a pile in the corner. I guess that's a Visio bug. It wouldn't surprise me if it was something as stupid as the WMF text positions using unexpected scaling or negative numbers or something legit that was just not tested by the Visio crew.
Anyhow, definitely pretty sad that MS can't get their own products to work together properly. But I suppose it's miraculous that we at least have fonts that work on both platforms in Word.
> Hi Graham: > [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] >> >> Graham John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 29 Jul 2006 09:09 GMT Hi Graham:
Yeah, it's just so sad. Microsoft Office PC Program Group is just so unbelievably arrogant -- they have not yet caught up with the idea that the rest of the world expects it to "just work", and that if it doesn't, that's NOT a reason to "Just buy Microsoft Office", that's a reason to "Buy something else!"
EMF, WMF, PICT and QuickDraw are all based around CGM. But WMF can't handle larger than 16-bit numbers, and QuickDraw has been deprecated in favour of PDF on the Mac.
So yes: the reason to use EMF is to keep your rotated text. The reason to avoid it is rotated text! Often you can get it to work by first pasting into PowerPoint or Excel on the Mac (which both *expect* rotated text). Let them convert to PICT or PDF (I'm not sure which they do: I think it's still PICT) then paste that into Word.
I know that Microsoft has high hopes that if they just do *nothing* for long enough, eventually the world will swing into line with them. Well, maybe that would have been true if Mac had indeed gone broke. But it didn't. So now, they need to get their cross-platform issues FIXED.
Because the first question that is going to be asked by any form of Government purchasing authority, anyplace but the USA, is "Is it cross-platform?"
And by that, we don't mean "Can you still read the text?" :-)
Cheers
On 29/7/06 3:25 PM, in article #eHHs9ssGHA.1632@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl,
>> For the ultimate cross-platform experience, *Leave the damned things >> alone* [quoted text clipped - 165 lines] >>> >>> Graham
 Signature Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to.
John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410
Graham Wideman [Visio MVP] - 29 Jul 2006 11:11 GMT John:
I'm not quite following your idea here:
> So yes: the reason to use EMF is to keep your rotated text. The reason to > avoid it is rotated text! Often you can get it to work by first pasting [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > still > PICT) then paste that into Word. I'm assuming you were commenting on the case of going from Visio, destination Mac Word.
How would I paste EMF into *Mac* PPT?
I tried pasting EMF from Visio into Win PPT, but the only choices were bitmap or DIB, (or Visio drawing object). Same in Excel.
As for harsh comments on Windows Office group... they might have a few coming from these quarters too, but not so far on this topic, which is mostly about not being able to render EMF on Mac Word (unless of course it's the Win Office group responsible for that!)
Graham
Elliott Roper - 29 Jul 2006 12:06 GMT <snip>
> I have to admit, it's making sticking the damn picture in as a TIF (with > compression) look pretty attractive. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > text positions using unexpected scaling or negative numbers or something > legit that was just not tested by the Visio crew. If you are interested in Visio to Mac Office interchange, you might like to experiment with Omnigraffle Professional (www.omnigroup.com) It can import and export some flavours of Visio. OmniGraffle is a diagramming application somewhat at an angle to Visio. It makes excellent use of the Mac GUI.
I have had some success using it as an intermediary between Word and various eps producers, but not yet Visio. (I lack the necessary PC and Visio, and I'm in no hurry to get either). If you want to play, there is a time limited demo on their site.
Omni group seem about to be fill another gap in the Mac line-up. There is now a beta of "OmniPlan" on the same site. It will import and export Microsoft Project files, and work on them on a delightfully Mac-ish way.
Phillip M. Jones, CE.T. - 29 Jul 2006 19:53 GMT >> For the ultimate cross-platform experience, *Leave the damned things >> alone* [quoted text clipped - 165 lines] >>> >>> Graham Of Course when MS switch office over to XML so that everyone can open read write to the same document whether they are on a Mac, PC, UNIX, or Linux machine; everything will be great ;-)
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Beth Rosengard - 29 Jul 2006 23:21 GMT Hi Phillip,
If you don't learn to snip quoted text, I'm going to stop reading your posts
:-). Of course, you might not care whether I read them or not ;-).
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On 7/29/06 11:53 AM, in article #gZ8#A0sGHA.3324@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl,
> Of Course when MS switch office over to XML so that everyone can open > read write to the same document whether they are on a Mac, PC, UNIX, or > Linux machine; everything will be great ;-) John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 30 Jul 2006 03:11 GMT Hell, when he learns to *TOP* post, I may "begin" to read his posts :-)
Naaahh.... I *did* scroll eight screenfulls down to see what he had on the end of that one.
And I happen to agree with him, in a hopeful kind of way.
XML will not "fix" this problem. Initially, it will make it worse :-) In XML, the graphics language is SVG (Scaleable Vector Graphics).
Apple and Microsoft will now have to implement that. They both say they do. In fact it doesn't work very well on either platform, as anyone who has tried to put them on the web can attest.
Cheers
On 30/7/06 8:21 AM, in article C0F12D74.341C8%bethrosengard@earthlink.net,
> Hi Phillip, > > If you don't learn to snip quoted text, I'm going to stop reading your posts > :-). Of course, you might not care whether I read them or not ;-).
 Signature Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to.
John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410
Phillip M. Jones, CE.T. - 30 Jul 2006 16:46 GMT > Hi Phillip, > > If you don't learn to snip quoted text, I'm going to stop reading your posts > :-). Of course, you might not care whether I read them or not ;-). I never know which groups want snipping or not. some groups I read will send some one to your hous to give you a going over if you snip anything. ;-) (Well almost that severe.) Other s threaten banishment from the group if you do so. And some want you to. So I never know what to do. I usually end up doing it wrong in the wrong group. Its Daxxed if you do and daxxed if don't.
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling 616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868 Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet ------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
mailto:pjones@kimbanet.com
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm> <http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm> <http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html> <http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm> <http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>
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John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 30 Jul 2006 23:16 GMT Hi Phillip:
In here, top post or snip please. Preferably, BOTH!
Cheers
On 31/7/06 1:46 AM, in article eaufi9#sGHA.4752@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl,
>> Hi Phillip, >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to do. I usually end up doing it wrong in the wrong group. Its Daxxed if > you do and daxxed if don't.
 Signature Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to.
John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410
Clive Huggan - 29 Jul 2006 11:20 GMT Graham,
Apropos of John's comment below: You or the other people involved might find some notes I've written on "minimum maintenance" formatting useful. They are on page 149 et seq. of some notes on the way I use Word for the Mac, titled "Bend Word to Your Will", which are available as a free download from the Word MVPs' website (http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html). Notes on cross-platform work (which is my normal area of operation) are also there.
[Note: "Bend Word to your will" is designed to be used electronically and most subjects are self-contained dictionary-style entries. If you decide to read more widely than the item I've referred to, it's important to read the front end of the document -- especially pages 3 and 5 -- so you can select some Word settings that will allow you to use the document effectively.]
Cheers,
Clive Huggan Canberra, Australia (My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the US and Europe, so my follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed) ============================================================
On 29/7/06 1:52 PM, in article C0F118B3.410FD%john@mcghie.name, "John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]" <john@mcghie.name> wrote:
<snip>
> If a document is correctly formatted, you will never be aware of the > differences: each document will format and paginate and print perfectly. If > the document contains blank lines and hard page breaks, allow plenty of > extra project schedule, because you will have to laboriously fix it each > time it changes platform. <snip>
> On 29/7/06 1:17 PM, in article uTAu$1rsGHA.4252@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> Graham
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