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Mac Forum / Applications / Word / March 2006Missing characters/unusable font in Word 2004
I recently upgraded from Office X to Office 2004. Just now I tried opening a document (my resume, of all things) and found that some characters have been replaced by boxes. The missing characters are from the font "Hoefler Text Ornaments", which is still installed on my machine and is still usable by other applications. (This font has a nice pair of characters, a sun and a moon, that I had been using as bullets). Needless to say, this worked fine in Word X. The font is listed in MS Word's Font menu, but it doesn't behave like other fonts. If I select it and start typing, the characters appear as boxes. If I then highlight these boxes and select a new font, the characters are then printed appropriately for the newly selected font. However, the reverse is not true: if I select text and then try to change its font to Hoefler Text Ornaments, the command is ignored and the font is unchanged. Word does recognize Hoefler Text Ornaments as a symbol font. If I select Insert -> Symbol..., it does appear in the list of avalable fonts. However, when I select it the array of available characters do not show the Hoefler Text Ornaments character set. At this point I don't even remember all the things I've tried doing to either test diagnose or work around this. I tried using the Mac OS Character Palate, selecting the desired character and clicking on "Insert with Font", but I get an error message stating "Couldn't set the application font. Please set it to 'Hoefler Text Ornaments' in the application." Of course, it still tells me this regardless of what the font is set to. I tried quitting Word and trashing ~/Library/Preferences/Microsoft/Word Font Substitutes, but that made no difference. I used Apple's "Font Book" application to validate the font, but no problems were found. I did use Font Book to deactivate the Classic Mac OS verison, but that didn't help. I'm also still able to insert these characters in any other application I've tried. I suppose I could trash Office 2004 and reinstall Office X (I still have the installer discs for that), but I'd rather avoid doing so if I can. I'm running out of ideas here. Any suggestions? Hi Jonathan: I would start by trashing the OS and Office Font Cache's then rebooting the computer. That will flush all of the font caches and rebuild them. I am suspecting that the problem is along the lines of "I know the font is there, but it's not where I left it..." Hope this helps On 10/3/06 4:05 PM, in article 1141967139.056636.272930@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com, "jonathan" > I recently upgraded from Office X to Office 2004. Just now I tried > opening a document (my resume, of all things) and found that some [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > I'm running out of ideas here. Any suggestions?  SignaturePlease reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to. John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410 Hi there John, Thanks for the tip. It took me all day to be able to wrap up a couple of things so I could close the windows and reboot. I'm afraid that nothing has changed. MS Word 2004 handles "Hoefler Text Ornaments" exactly as I described before. Just to be sure that I followed your suggestion correctly, the following are the files I removed before rebooting: * ~/Library/Preferences/Microsoft/Office Font Cache (11) * 3 files from ~/Library/Caches/ (com.apple.FCacheClassicDomain, com.apple.FCacheUserDomain, and com.microsoft.browserfont.cache) * the entire folder /Library/Caches/com.apple.ATS/ What would you suggest next? BTW, I haven't mentioned that I'm doing all this on a PowerBook G4 running OS X 10.4.5. However, I've seen similar behavior on my desktop machine (a PowerMac G4 running OS X 10.3.9 which I had also just updated from Office X to Office 2004). On that machine I only opened my resume and saw the bullets missing; I haven't tried any diagnosing or debugging. > Hi there John, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > my resume and saw the bullets missing; I haven't tried any diagnosing > or debugging. After a couple of experiments, I've decided that Word 2004 just does not like Heofler Text Ornaments. I can reproduce your problem exactly here. Word X will display Herr Hoefler's ornaments happily. Word 2004 draws boxes. Word X opens the file with the boxes in and displays the ornaments. (In fact I was rather surprised to see that it automatically generated a "recovered" file from my still open attempts to make 2004 behave.) It seems that the ornaments behave like symbol in Word X, but the transition to Unicode adds 0xF000 to the symbol. E.g the ornament that you get by typing a lower case a (0x0061) in Word X becomes 0xF061 which is up in the "Private Use" area of Unicode. If, in Word 2004, you select Hoefler Text ornamants, and type "ababab" you get six boxes. You can copy and paste that into Omnigraffe (a well behaved Unicode application) and Word's boxes become the correct ornaments. So Word almost gets it right, but not quite. Alternatively, if you select a single ornament character (one of the boxes) in Word 2004, then ask the character palette to "display selected character in application" (It's under the gear icon at the bottom left of its expanded window) it will prove to you that Word 2004 inserted the "correct" private area character. If you try the same trick in Word X, it is even weirder. Every ornament, while displaying properly, appears to the character palette as 0x005F, yet, if you copy and paste the same character into Font Book's Custom Preview, and then ask Character Palette what character it is, It's an "a" 0x0061. Word x, even though it is not a Unicode application, will happily display the Unicode ornaments created in 2004 correctly, but Word 2004 cannot do so. Furthermore, when Word 2004 opens a file created in Word X and containing non-unicode ornaments, it correctly translates each ornament to the proper Unicode character and then wusses out when trying to display them. I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with my fonts or font cache. It looks like a Word 2004 bug to me. I'd love to be proved wrong by someone who can get Hoefler ornaments to display properly in Word 2004. Finally, if you insist on your sun and moon, (0xF074 and 5) might I suggest a baroque workaround... make eps's of them in something else, (I used OmniGraffle to test the theory) then insert as pictures. OK OK it is horrible, but would be a decent way to use the ornaments as Hoefler intended - for constucting a frieze border from alternating pairs of ornaments. PS. I can see why you like them. They are stunning looking glyphs. Funny and stylish at the same time. SignatureTo de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$ PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248 Hi Elliott - > I'd love to be proved wrong by someone who can get Hoefler ornaments to > display properly in Word 2004 It won't be me! I've tried any number of ways & it *Just Don't Work*... The boxes are all Word '04 will display. Also attempted through Insert>Symbol, but selecting Hoefler Text Ornaments displays Romans & inserts boxes - even though the info at the bottom of the dialog box reads: "Insert Hoefler Text Ornaments character 98 (Unicode character 61538)". I even tried typing some in InDesign CS2, then copy & paste to Word with the same dismal result. But here is one more potential piece to the puzzle: apparently the font is designed in such a way that "Ornaments" is actually an alternative style for Hoefler Text font just the same as bold & italic. Even Font Book lists Ornaments as a subordinate to Hoefler Text, not as a separate font. It's handled the same way in ID, but apparently Word can't deal with it. Regards |:>) On 3/10/06 6:37 PM, in article 100320062337346022%nospam@yrl.co.uk, "Elliott Roper" <nospam@yrl.co.uk> wrote: > I'd love to be proved wrong by someone who can get Hoefler ornaments to > display properly in Word 2004 Hi Elliott: Yeah. Well... I'm not sure that this is going to prove you "wrong", I can get it to display in Word 2004 on OS 10.3.9 in a G4 iBook. It would appear that "Hoefler Text Ornaments" is not actually a "Font". It appears to be a set of glyph variants within the Hoefler Text font. Glyph Variants are an extended application of Unicode that Word doesn't support in this version. To produce that character, 1) I first set all of the surrounding text to Hoefler Text Ornaments. 2) I then select precisely one character and open Character Palette. 3) I then insert the sun and the moon. Character Palette will nag that it was unable to set the font in the application, and that the application doesn't support glyph variants. Both statements are true :-) But you will get your characters. Immediately to the left of each, you will also get a square box. That's the "real" glyph in the "actual" font, Hoefler Text. Delete it, and you should be good to go. Getting this to happen in bullets is going to be a far greater challenge, since Word expects a singe Unicode character value for a bullet, and that's not what we have here: these characters are coded as "Variation 53 and 54 on the letters n and t". Cheers On 11/3/06 10:37 AM, in article 100320062337346022%nospam@yrl.co.uk, >> Hi there John, >> [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > PS. I can see why you like them. They are stunning looking glyphs. > Funny and stylish at the same time. SignaturePlease reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to. John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410 > Hi Elliott: > > Yeah. Well... I'm not sure that this is going to prove you "wrong", I can > get it to display in Word 2004 on OS 10.3.9 in a G4 iBook. Try as I can, I cannot get your recipe to work. OS 10.4.5 > It would appear that "Hoefler Text Ornaments" is not actually a "Font". It > appears to be a set of glyph variants within the Hoefler Text font. Glyph > Variants are an extended application of Unicode that Word doesn't support in > this version. Agree that is a likely explanation. There are a number of "swash" fonts lying about here that might be similar. I'll play later with those if I can raise any more enthusiasm. Any time I consider a swash glyph you can be sure I'm not using Word. Toy applications, like TextEdit, and others with no typographic pretensions at all, like OmniGraffle and OmniOutliner can deal with those ornaments with ease. But none of them have a command called "DrawInsertCloudCallout" so they must be unfit for purpose [1]. Word's designers clearly have a superior set of priorities. (OK, I'm being snarky, but I'm fighting the four year old second screen redraw bug as I research this behaviour, so you will forgive my curmudgeon on this won't you?) > To produce that character, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > 3) I then insert the sun and the moon. Here, the selected character is replaced by a square. Nothing else. > Character Palette will nag that it was unable to set the font in the > application, and that the application doesn't support glyph variants. Both > statements are true :-) I don't get the second part of that message. > Word expects a singe Unicode character value for a bullet, and that's > not what we have here: these characters are coded as "Variation 53 > and 54 on the letters n and t". I can't get anything to say that here. If I select the sun square in Word, then ask Character Palette about the character selected in application, I'm told Unicode "F074 UTF8: EF 81 84 GID 53" I recognise the 53, but those "Variation"s sound like half remembered Apple extended from the bad old pre-Unicode days Font Book says my font is version 5.0d7e2 Mon, Mar 7, 2005 1. Actually, OmniGraffle does a very nice line in clouds. As the Word 12 people surely know. If not, they should have a play with it to see how palettes, inspectors and toolbars should be done. SignatureTo de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$ PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248 I'm having this problem with the Symbol font.. However, even in the Symbol palette inside Word, there are quite a lot of positions now which show just as rectangles Hi Whatever Your Name Is: That's not actually a bug: that's a feature :-) In the Insert>Symbol dialog, what you see is a matrix table that shows all of the "slots" in the character range of the font, and a picture of the glyph that is in each. The idea is that you are supposed to be able to figure out what the character number of a glyph is by its position in the table. Symbol is a very small font that contains few glyphs, so several of those positions are "intentionally blank", there is no glyph in Symbol at that character address. This is an old mechanism designed in the pre-Unicode days when "character number" was important. Now, we don't care what character number a glyph has in a font, we're only interested in its Unicode value. You notice that down the bottom of the dialog, it tells you what the Unicode value for each glyph actually is. The new version of this dialog will simply show the Unicode value and Name, just like Font Book does. In the meantime, check the version of your font: I have two on my system. One installed by the Classic environment is version 3.5 from 2000. This is a font suitcase and is fairly limited. The other is version 4.1d3 from 2003. It's a Unicode datafork true-type font that has a wider range of characters available. You may want to check that you have the correct version enabled on your system. :-) Cheers On 12/3/06 9:41 AM, in article 1142116918.373940.301080@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, > I'm having this problem with the Symbol font.. However, even in the > Symbol palette inside Word, there are quite a lot of positions now > which show just as rectangles SignaturePlease reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to. John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410 Huh? According to you, John, if it isn't what the user expects ("software behaviour that does not conform to the CUSTOMER's requirements" direct quote), then it's a bug <vbeg>. Beth On 3/11/06 4:14 PM, in article C039B330.31735%john@mcghie.name, "John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]" <john@mcghie.name> wrote: > That's not actually a bug: that's a feature :-) > Huh? According to you, John, if it isn't what the user expects > ("software behaviour that does not conform to the CUSTOMER's requirements" > direct quote), then it's a bug <vbeg>. Kaching!!!! > Beth > > On 3/11/06 4:14 PM, in article C039B330.31735%john@mcghie.name, "John McGhie > [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]" <john@mcghie.name> wrote: > > > That's not actually a bug: that's a feature :-) The sad thing is that John will admit you are right. It is a bug. One of many. Once again we will pay the new version tax. Once again there will be as many new bugs as old ones are fixed. Does anyone detect a pa*@£# NO CARRIER SignatureTo de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$ PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248 The only user who requires particular feature is a VBA coder who needs to know what the flaming character number is when working in a non-Unicode font. Now how do you feel? On 13/3/06 5:41 AM, in article C039AB77.299A1%bethrosengard@earthlink.net, > Huh? According to you, John, if it isn't what the user expects > ("software behaviour that does not conform to the CUSTOMER's requirements" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >> That's not actually a bug: that's a feature :-) SignaturePlease reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to. John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410 I feel fine :-). How do you feel? Beth On 3/12/06 3:32 PM, in article C03AFAB3.31818%john@mcghie.name, "John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]" <john@mcghie.name> wrote: > The only user who requires particular feature is a VBA coder who needs to > know what the flaming character number is when working in a non-Unicode [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >>> That's not actually a bug: that's a feature :-) OK, time for medication, sweeties! ;-))) [anon] <g,d&r> ====== On 13/3/06 6:05 PM, in article C03A59B4.29A00%bethrosengard@earthlink.net, > I feel fine :-). How do you feel? > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >>> >>>> That's not actually a bug: that's a feature :-) |
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