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Mac Forum / Applications / Word / February 2006Esoterica: Breaking nonspace?
Hi folks, Here's my problem. I don't want to turn on auto hyphenation, but Wor is not even breaking already-hyphenated words at the ends of lines. I there a way to get Word to do this by default? Failing that, how do manually insert a breaking nonspace after the hyphens? I used to kno this, but I have forgotten. Best, Andre -- A. Sparlin macosx.com - The Answer to Mac Support - http://www.macosx.co Hi Andrew - Is this a new doc, or are you editing a pre-existing one? Regards |:>) On 2/16/06 3:45 PM, in article A.Sparling.23cand@nomx.macosx.com, "A. Sparling" <A.Sparling.23cand@nomx.macosx.com> wrote: > Hi folks, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Andrew Pre-existing, but any tips for new, future documents would also b helpful -- A. Sparlin macosx.com - The Answer to Mac Support - http://www.macosx.co Hi Andrew: You're looking for the "Discretionary Hyphen" which Word (incorrectly!!) refers to as the "Optional Hyphen". You can insert one using Command + - (Command + hyphen). Or automaticlly by using the methods described under Hyphenation in the Word Help. <Rant>I do wish Microsoft WOULDN'T replace industry-standard terms with their dumbed-down equivalents. Translating geek-speak into English is fine, but if something has a proper name, you need to leave it in the Help as well </Rant> Cheers On 17/2/06 7:45 AM, in article A.Sparling.23cand@nomx.macosx.com, "A. Sparling" <A.Sparling.23cand@nomx.macosx.com> wrote: > Hi folks, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Andrew  SignaturePlease reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to. John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410 Dear John, Thanks, but the discretionary hyphen won't fit the bill. Here's th problem. Suppose I have a loose line, and the first word on the nex line is "ten-cent" (with a regular hyphen). Word seems to assume b default that I don't want words to break, even when they are alread hyphenated. Now, I don't want to ADD a whole bunch of hyphenation, bu I would like to force "ten-" up to the previous line. I can do this manually (assuming the line is loose enough) by deletin the hyphen and inserting a cmd-hyphen (discretionary hyphen). But the if the text reflows, my hyphen disappears, and my "ten-cent coupon" ha become a "tencent coupon". But if I insert a cmd-hyphen before th hyphen, then the word breaks but I have a hyphen both at the end of th upper line ("ten-") and the beginning of the lower line ("-cent"). Instead, what I need to insert is a breaking nonspace. This is a esoteric character of zero width that allows words to break. I hav used it in the past, and I know it's "there," but I just don't kno where "there" is -- A. Sparlin macosx.com - The Answer to Mac Support - http://www.macosx.co Hi Andrew: Word always breaks at a normal hyphen. Are you SURE the characters on that page are not non-breaking hyphens? Try this: Make a copy of the document and replace every space with a hyphen. You should find that you end up with a hyphen at the end of every line. There are some views that won't wrap. There are some justifications that won't wrap. Which view and justification are you using? Turn on Show/Hide: check for paragraph marks or line feeds at the end of each line? Cheers On 17/2/06 5:29 PM, in article A.Sparling.23d2fd@nomx.macosx.com, "A. Sparling" <A.Sparling.23d2fd@nomx.macosx.com> wrote: > Dear John, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > used it in the past, and I know it's "there," but I just don't know > where "there" is. SignaturePlease reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to. John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410 Hello again - The reason I asked about the vintage of the doc is that I have found that Word's default behavior _is_ to break the line after the hyphen exactly as you describe in your example... ten- on the one line, cent on the other. My understanding is that this is what you want. Is it possible the doc was created using Nonbreaking Hyphens (Cmd+Shift+-)? What happens if you do a Find for ^~ and Replace with - ? HTH |:>) On 2/17/06 1:29 AM, in article A.Sparling.23d2fd@nomx.macosx.com, "A. Sparling" <A.Sparling.23d2fd@nomx.macosx.com> wrote: > Dear John, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > used it in the past, and I know it's "there," but I just don't know > where "there" is. Dear John, Curiouser and curiouser. Yes, my beloved Word 5.1A always broke a hyphens, but in my experience Word 2004 does not. I took your last pos and pasted it into Word and, as you suggested, replaced each space wit a hyphen. Then I replaced the paragraph marks with hyphens for goo measure. Then, in page layout view, I pasted the result. All the break were in the middle of words and there was not one break at a hyphen! In the following block of text I have added [LB] to show where each o the line breaks showed up: Word-always-breaks-at-a-normal-hyphen.--Are-you-SURE-the-char[LB]acters-on-that-page-are-not-non-breaking-hyphens?--Try-this:--Ma[LB]ke-a-copy-of-the-document-and-replace-every-space-with-a-hyphe[LB]n.--You-should-find-that-you-end-up-with-a-hyphen-at-the-end-of[LB]-every-line.--There-are-some-views-that-won't-wrap.--There-are-so[LB]me-justifications-that-won't-wrap.--Which-view-and-justification-a[LB]re-you-using?--Turn-on-Show/Hide:-check-for-paragraph-marks-o[LB]r-line-feeds-at-the-end-of-each-line?--Cheers-- This was in 12-pt. New York on a letter-sized page. When I went t Normal view the display was the same. The text was justified, but i made no difference whether I quadded it left, right, or centered it. I I changed the text to Times, the breaks were in different places (as yo would expect) but the phenomenon was unchanged. Again, not one landed a a hyphen. This is with tabs, spaces, para. marks, 'optional' hyphens, and hidde text all showing; if I make all visible, it doesn't change things on jot or tittle. If I replace all the hyphens with nonbreaking hyphens, they loo different on the screen, but they flow just the same way. Andre -- A. Sparlin macosx.com - The Answer to Mac Support - http://www.macosx.co Hello Again - >From the description, I can't help but believe that the testing methods are skewing the results. Copying & pasting (especially from Text/HTML) into a doc automatically throws in variables that would ordinarily not be there in a typed document. If you want an honest test of how Word 2004 behaves, start with a new blank doc, type a line of text and hyphenate a word at the end of the line. I truly believe you will find that it does exactly the same as your "beloved Word 5.1A"... otherwise there is some issue with the software (preferences or a library, perhaps) that needs to be addressed. Also, I have never heard of a "breaking nonspace" in more than 15 years of using WordStar, Word, WordPerfect, WordPro, PageMaker, QuarkXPress, InDesign & FrameMaker (to name a few). Nonbreaking spaces, flush spaces, hair spaces, punctuation spaces, em spaces, en spaces, thin spaces, figure spaces, nonbreaking hyphens, discretionary hyphens, yes - "breaking nonspaces", no. Nor can I conceive of _any_ condition where I would want a word to be split into two parts at the end of a line without being hyphenated. Aside from being a grotesque grammatical error it would be abysmally problematic in terms of reading comprehensibility. I readily admit that I by no means know everything, so if you are able to recall more about this I would sincerely like to know about it. [A day without learning is a day wasted!] Regards |:>) OK, fair enough--I did as you suggested, typing the following into fresh document: Moreover, when I, affected with admiration, said to him; My Master, pray tell me, where had you this greatest Scinece of the whole World He answered, I received such Magnalia from the Communication of certain Extraneous Friend, who for cer-tain dayes lodged in my House professing, that he was a Lover of Art, and came to teach me variou Arts; viz. how, besides the aforesaid, of stones, and Crystal, mos beautiful precious Stones are made much more fair than Rubies Chrysolites, Saphires, and others of that kind. Also how to prepare Crocus Martis ... The word "certain" was at the beginning of a line. When I inserted a optional hyphen, "cer-" went to the previous line. But with a hyphen it all stayed on the lower line, as before. I discovered Word's breaking zero-width space when corresponding with Microsoft support person about a contrary problem, namely, when inserted overstrike characters into words using field codes, Word wa breaking the words after the field codes. So, for instance, if I type q-acute in a word as an overstrike (I had to do this, since q-acute i not a Unicode character), Word would break the word after the q-acut at the end of the line. Which was, as you rightly observe typographically abysmal. The solution was to insert the NONbreakin nonspace, a Word character that had to be imported from the Window version, into each of my automated overstrike shortcuts. The most obvious application of the BREAKING nonspace (or zero-widt space) is to break up URLs so they run over multiple lines, even i they have no spaces in them. Admittedly, if my hyphens were workin correctly, I wouldn't have as much use for them. CyberTaz Wrote: > Hello Again - > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Regards |:> -- A. Sparlin macosx.com - The Answer to Mac Support - http://www.macosx.co Ahah! Thanks for getting back... it now appears you're referring to Word's notorious (and somewhat unique) Siamese Twins - "No-Width Non Break" & "No-Width Optional Break", and your explanation of the 'extenuating circumstances' justifying the need for such contrivances certainly makes it a much clearer picture. Perhaps I just don't underestand how to use them correctly, but I have always steered clear of them as a) in my experience, they invariably screw up the character spacing at the end of the line & b) I generally do work requiring highly accurate typesetting control in a DTP app. Again, you reply is much appreciated! Regards |:>) Hi Andrew, I just tried the same thing with the same text. Only difference was I used Arial 12 pt. My result was exactly as John predicted: I had a hyphen at the end of each line. I'm wondering if perhaps you have a corrupt Normal template. To test this, quit Word, rename Normal to something else, and relaunch Word. Any difference? If this fixes it and you have a highly customized Normal, you can transfer over most customizations using the Organizer. See here: <http://word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/MacWordNormal.htm> (If using Safari, hit Refresh once or twice; better yet, use another browser for this site.) Signature***Please always reply to the newsgroup!*** Beth Rosengard MacOffice MVP Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/index.htm> (If using Safari, hit Refresh once or twice or use another browser.) Entourage Help Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org> On 2/17/06 6:53 AM, in article A.Sparling.23dpkn@nomx.macosx.com, "A. Sparling" <A.Sparling.23dpkn@nomx.macosx.com> wrote: > Dear John, > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Andrew I'm Struggling on this one too... I don't think it's his Normal template, but I can't think of a Pref that would do this either... Yes, I can... "Compatibility Options". Andrew: Go to Preferences>Compatibility and ensure: 1) Recommended Options for: is set to the latest version you have (Word 2004) 2) EVERYTHING in the Options box below that is turned OFF If that doesn't fix your problem, please email me a sample document. You will need to paste in a one-time password in the SUBJECT line of your email to get through my Spam and Virus filters. Yours is: "C01B7D5E.28246" Cheers On 18/2/06 8:17 AM, in article C01B7D5E.28246%bethrosengard@earthlink.net, > Hi Andrew, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > (If using Safari, hit Refresh once or twice; better yet, use another browser > for this site.) SignaturePlease reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to. John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410 Hmm, please see the reply I just posted to John, below. The document i which I tested Word's behavior was a new document. My hyphens appear t be behaving like nonbreaking hyphens. This is Word 11.2 (050714) unde Tiger. I am using the US extended keyboard and the text is coded as U English, although it makes no difference if I change it to Aussi o British English (or German, for that matter). CyberTaz Wrote: > Hello again - > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > used it in the past, and I know it's "there," but I just don't know > > where "there" is. -- A. Sparlin macosx.com - The Answer to Mac Support - http://www.macosx.co > Instead, what I need to insert is a breaking nonspace. This is an > esoteric character of zero width that allows words to break. I have > used it in the past, and I know it's "there," but I just don't know > where "there" is. Please note CyberTaz's comment that not everyone has the problem you see. Generally preferable to fix the way your Word is behaving than do a manual fix. However, there's an FAQ for WinWord on inserting this. I haven't a clue how to translate it to MacWord, but it gives the unicode, so it ought to. I also haven't a clue whether the macros work on the Mac, and even if they do, would test them on a COPY. See if that helps. http://word.mvps.org/faqs/formatting/NoWidthSpace.htm (hit reload a few times in Safari, or use a different browser) SignatureDaiya Mitchell, MVP Mac/Word Word FAQ: http://www.word.mvps.org/ MacWord Tips: <http://www.word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/> What's an MVP? A volunteer! Read the FAQ: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/ oops ... see belo -- A. Sparlin macosx.com - The Answer to Mac Support - http://www.macosx.co |
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