Graphic object vertical alignment shifts between Mac/Windows
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Dave - 06 Feb 2006 04:57 GMT For John McGhie:
I saw your very informed postings in this Google group and thought you might know something about my problem. I have a Word form which uses a series of tables with form fields in the cells. The various tables are separated by only a paragraph return character. The top row (one cell) of each table has a graphic object anchored to it as a design element. These objects are the same size as the table cells/rows. The formatting options chosen are behind text, centered in column, absolute position 0 below paragraph. Objects are set to move with text, anchors are not locked (because the entire table row appears either on one page or another) and overlap is allowed, though that doesn't come into play.
When viewed on a Windows machine, everything looks fine. The graphic objects perfectly align with their rows. (The document was created on a PC, if that matters, which it shouldn't.) But when opened on a Mac, these objects can be misaligned. For objects at the top of a page, aligment is perfect. As you move progressively down the page to other tables, the objects get lower and lower relative to their row anchors. If the problem is fixed on the Mac, the objects appear high when viewed once again on a PC.
If the row and accompanying object happen to move to the next page because a previous table grows, the position of the object is restored to normal. To make things more interesting, I've determined that it isn't the page position itself, but the number of other objects appearing above the offending object on that page that controls how far below the correct position any given object appears. So if there is a long table filling most of the page, followed by another table, the second table's object is only slightly out of position, even though it's low on the page. If there are several short tables with associated objects, however, the lower ones can be quite far out of position. Again, if a particular table/row/object is bumped to the next page, things appear in the correct position.
Any thoughts on why this happens or how to fix it would be appreciated. Thank you.
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 07 Feb 2006 03:12 GMT Hi Dave:
Totally consistent with the way Word goes about its work.
The problem is that the printer driver, printer metrics, and font metrics are slightly different between the Mac and the PC. You will always get these small shifts because of that.
The cure would be to place the picture IN the table cell, not as a floating item. Right-click the picture, choose Format Picture and set its Wrapping style to Inline with Text.
Then drag or paste the picture INTO the table cell. If you paste, the table will go strange on you: when that happens click the picture and set it back to Inline With Text and the table will put itself back together again.
Cheers
On 6/2/06 3:57 PM, in article 1139201823.476570.138770@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Dave" <d2wagner@earthlink.net> wrote:
> For John McGhie: > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Any thoughts on why this happens or how to fix it would be appreciated. > Thank you.
 Signature Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to.
John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410
Dave - 07 Feb 2006 19:20 GMT John:
Thanks so much for the quick reply. Your fix works in some respects. The graphics elements that gave me trouble were each composed of a picture grouped with a text box. Word did not allow me to select In line as a wrapping option. However, when I ungrouped and tried your fix with only the picture portion, it worked perfectly.
For now, I've left the text boxes separate, anchored to the appropriate cell rows. They still exhibit the same behavior as before, moving downwards proportionally to the number of other text boxes above on the page. Any thoughts how to fix that?
Thanks, Dave
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 08 Feb 2006 00:31 GMT Hi Dave:
Nope. Text boxes are anchored at an absolute offset from the position of the anchor point in the document. In other words, "So many twips to the right of, and so many twips down from" the anchor point.
A "twip" is a twentieth of a point, the measurement Word uses internally for high precision measurements.
The anchor point is always the extreme beginning of the paragraph containing the anchor point. You can reveal them on screen using Word Preferences.
The problem we have is that whenever the printer driver, font, font metrics, display driver, display metrics etc change, all of the relative positions are recalculated from the top of the document. This results in slight variations due to rounding errors and other variations (for example, "pixels" are not necessarily the same shape on a PC and a Mac, font designers know this and adjust their fonts accordingly). These errors build up on each other the further down the document you get.
I try very hard to avoid using any kind of "floating" object, for this reason. Just going from PC to PC you will get variations in the positioning and wrapping of floating objects.
So my 'cure' to your problem would be simply to figure out a way to do without the text boxes. There is, as you have discovered, no way to make a text box "not" float: that's their purpose, to produce "floating text runs". But they're graphics objects, and they will wander around: you can't prevent it.
I usually use a combination of tables and frames to produce the effects I am looking for.
However, if I absolutely MUST produce a desktop-publishing effect in Word (rather than using a page layout program to do the job properly) the technique I use quite a bit is "Insert Object". This is a bit of a fiddle, and it's quite an advanced technique -- you will have "limited" success teaching unskilled users to employ it :-) Here it is:
1) In Microsoft Word, use the Insert>Object menu item, and choose the "Microsoft Word Picture" entry.
2) This opens up a small square drawing space.
3) Not that a small floating toolbar will appear containing only one button. Do NOT close this toolbar!!
4) In that space, arrange all of the objects you want to stay together. Get them exactly right...
5) When you have finished, click the "Reset Picture Boundary" button to expand the picture boundaries to the extremities of your drawing objects. Observe the effect.
6) If any of your objects moved out of alignment:
A) Draw a square large enough to contain all of your objects
B) Send the square To the Back
C) Remove the outline from the square, and set its fill to No Fill
D) Rearrange your objects on the square
E) Click Reset Picture Boundary again. This shrinks the boundary to the extremities of the square.
7) When all is good, click Close Picture on the little toolbar.
The result is a complete graphic as a single unit. It sits inline with the text and will not wander around or break apart, no matter how the text removes around it.
You can put text boxes, lines, bitmaps, vectors, anything you like in there. What you have actually created is a document nested within your document, and embedded in it is a "drawing canvas". The drawing canvas is a vector space: Word anchors each object within that space using scalable measurements that it can readjust as necessary to preserve exact relativity.
So: You "can" produce very accurate page layout in Microsoft Word. If you had to do this "often" you would NOT use Word to do this. This kind of thing is what QuarkExpress was designed to do, and what word-processors are designed to prevent. But Word will do it, if you force it to. And that's how...
The next version of Word will probably insert the canvas automatically, but Mac Word 2004 does not, so you have to do it manually.
Hope this helps
On 8/2/06 6:20 AM, in article 1139340004.138472.294600@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Dave" <d2wagner@earthlink.net> wrote:
> John: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thanks, Dave
 Signature Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to.
John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410
Dave - 08 Feb 2006 05:34 GMT Thanks again, John. You're right, of course. Creating all these little picture objects is certainly tedious. But it seems to solve the Mac/PC problem. And you're right about never asking someone else to do it. It's maddening to have the boxes all resizing themselves constantly. But it can eventually be done. Seems like something you'd do if you were too cheap to buy a DTP program.
In my case, I'm trying to make a usable template for 150 field consultants who only have Office on their laptops. No one else thought about interplatform portability. I'm suggesting strongly that we simply give up on the beautiful pictures and concentrate on a usable form. All this effort hasn't added any functionality.
I'm surprised Word doesn't allow you to fill with gradients like AppleWorks does. That's all these pictures are anyway.
So thanks for all your help.
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 09 Feb 2006 05:20 GMT It *is* something I do, and it *is* because I'm too cheap to buy a DTP program :-)
Word DOES allow you to fill with gradients -- which version of Word are you using? In Word 2004:
1) Select the drawing object that can be filled (only Drawing Objects can be filled)
2) Reveal the Formatting Palette
3) Under Colours, Weights and Fills click the drop-down arrow beside Colour
4) Choose Fill Effects...
And yes, pretty graphics rarely aid comprehension or information exchange sufficiently to be worth the cost and effort of creating them. I've never seen it add any functionality :-)
Cheers
On 8/2/06 4:34 PM, in article 1139376856.452540.139830@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Dave" <d2wagner@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Thanks again, John. You're right, of course. Creating all these little > picture objects is certainly tedious. But it seems to solve the Mac/PC [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > So thanks for all your help.
 Signature Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to.
John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410
Dave - 12 Feb 2006 14:47 GMT John, I used incorrect terminology. When I mentioned filling with gradients, I should have said shading with gradients. What would solve my problem is to be able to select the title cells in the tables, and put in the desired eye candy by formatting in the borders and shading window with a gradient rather than just a solid color. Now, if you know how to do that, I'd really owe you a great debt.
CyberTaz - 12 Feb 2006 17:42 GMT Hi Dave -
Have been following this thread with interest hoping to learn something new, but basically it has confirmed my prior understanding. I make *no* attempt to speak for John or to put words in his mouth, but one thing implied in his responses but not specifically stated...
Word has no provision for filling a Table, Column. Row or Cell with a gradient through the use of Format>Borders & Shading. The only options (I have found) available are Solid colors or the Patterns in the Styles list of that dialog box.
About the only way around it is to do as John suggests using a gradient image, inserting it into the doc, then dragging it to the table cell. Since it should be retained as InLine, however, it will not be possible to have text overprint the gradient image - assuming you do want to use the gradient as a background for text. If you change the Text Wrapping of the image to Behind Text (or create a Rectangle shape & fill it with a gradient _or_ create a text box on top of the graphic), you wind up in the same 'floating object' conundrum John so accurately & insightfully described.
You can, however, accomplish this in a page layout program such as QuarkXPress or InDesign (I'm not sure about Publisher). Another possibility is to create the table as a graphic file (again, using other software) and inserting as a picture in Word.
Regards |:>)
On 2/12/06 9:47 AM, in article 1139755667.322148.323340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, "Dave" <d2wagner@earthlink.net> wrote:
> John, I used incorrect terminology. When I mentioned filling with > gradients, I should have said shading with gradients. What would solve > my problem is to be able to select the title cells in the tables, and > put in the desired eye candy by formatting in the borders and shading > window with a gradient rather than just a solid color. Now, if you know > how to do that, I'd really owe you a great debt.
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