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Mac Forum / Applications / Word / November 2005



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Inserting fractions in Times

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Barbara Barber - 05 Nov 2005 05:48 GMT
I need help with inserting fractions from the character palette. I see all
kinds of fractions there in every font but can't get them into Word,
InDesign or anything else. Or, is there a way to automatically get 1/2, 1/3,
1/4, etc. to look like real fractions the same way the "st" in "1st"
automatically superscripts in Word? Or, is there a font that has fractions
that will be compatible with Times. I have tried inserting a MS equation and
the results are not good.  The people at Apple can't tell me anything.  They
say they don't have a character palette.  My iMac G4 has one but it seems
unusable.
Elliott Roper - 05 Nov 2005 13:07 GMT
>  I need help with inserting fractions from the character palette. I see all
> kinds of fractions there in every font but can't get them into Word,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> say they don't have a character palette.  My iMac G4 has one but it seems
> unusable.

InDesign ignores the character palette doesn't it? It uses its own
"Insert Glyphs". At least my old version of InDesign does.

Word 2004 will insert anything you can find in character palette. It
stores its characters as Unicode, which can represent 65,536 different
glyphs. Just double click the character you want in character palette.
Word v.X uses Apple Extended as its character set, with only 256
possible characters in any font.
Character Palette is unicode based, and when using it to insert funny
characters into Word v.X, only those that are also in the Apple
Extended set make it through to your document. Nicely formed fractions
not included.
You *can* fake fractions using the autocorrect feature. My trick was to
use EQ (equation) fields. In 'replace' I had (1/2). in 'with' I had *
EQ \f(1,2) * which had to be pasted in there from a real field
expression.
I liked that because I could then change it for any fraction, but it
was as ugly as sin as you noted. There was another trick involving
superscripts and slashes which looked better, but not nearly as good as
real Unicode glyphs.

If you like pretty fractions, the easy way is to spend money on Office
2004. (Aside to Beth: You never thought I'd say that did you?)

PS. you can still use the autocorrect trick but with the real fraction
character in Word 2004 if you want to avoid cluttering your screen with
the character palette.

PPS. The support person at Apple who told you they do not have a
character palette needs a slap.

PPPS. Try using the character palette in Text Edit. It is Unicode savvy.

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Clive Huggan - 07 Nov 2005 21:29 GMT
On 5/11/05 11:07 PM, in article 051120051207016557%nospam@yrl.co.uk,

<snip>  

> If you like pretty fractions, the easy way is to spend money on Office
> 2004. (Aside to Beth: You never thought I'd say that did you?)

<snip>

Only *Beth*???  She ain't Robinson Crusoe, cobber!

Clive
=======
Beth Rosengard - 07 Nov 2005 23:40 GMT
On 11/5/05 4:07 AM, in article 051120051207016557%nospam@yrl.co.uk, "Elliott
Roper" <nospam@yrl.co.uk> wrote:

> If you like pretty fractions, the easy way is to spend money on Office
> 2004. (Aside to Beth: You never thought I'd say that did you?)

<gasp>  I've been speechless for two days!

Beth
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 10 Nov 2005 04:16 GMT
{Thud!!}  Slowly picks jaw up from the floor...

Our most famous luddite has gone over to the Dark Side...  :-)

On 8/11/05 10:40 AM, in article BF952602.2274A%bethrosengard@earthlink.net,

> On 11/5/05 4:07 AM, in article 051120051207016557%nospam@yrl.co.uk, "Elliott
> Roper" <nospam@yrl.co.uk> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Beth

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John McGhie <john@mcghie.name>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh.  Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

Elliott Roper - 10 Nov 2005 09:33 GMT
> {Thud!!}  Slowly picks jaw up from the floor...
>
> Our most famous luddite has gone over to the Dark Side...  :-)

> > On 11/5/05 4:07 AM, in article 051120051207016557%nospam@yrl.co.uk, "Elliott
> > Roper" <nospam@yrl.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> If you like pretty fractions, the easy way is to spend money on Office
> >> 2004. (Aside to Beth: You never thought I'd say that did you?)

It is not too bad, either. A couple of things I was dreading, like the
animation of autocorrect and the comic book bubbles on track changes
are not as bad as I feared. And I love the long filenames and Unicode.

While you are logging usability bugs, what about the fiendish new way
of hiding modify style?

I made fingernail marks all over my screen before I found the
disclosure triangle hiding behind a pilcrow on mouseover in the current
style box under the style triangle of the formatting palette that is
reached by the view menu. For someone who only uses his mouse on
Tuesdays, that *was* a bit of a challenge.
What was wrong with the old format->style->modify?
Now that keyboard nav of the main menu bar in Tiger is very usable,
that mouseover idea is a step in the wrong direction. There has to be a
better way to see whether it is a paragraph or character style.

I know I could write a macro to bring up modify style with a keystroke,
but for a semi-newbie that would be a bit of a nuisance.

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Daiya Mitchell - 10 Nov 2005 16:09 GMT
> While you are logging usability bugs, what about the fiendish new way
> of hiding modify style?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> style box under the style triangle of the formatting palette that is
> reached by the view menu.

You are right.  That is a nightmare.

>For someone who only uses his mouse on
> Tuesdays, that *was* a bit of a challenge.
> What was wrong with the old format->style->modify?

Well, it's still there as a menu command. Did you use to be able to get
Modify Style to come up with one click?  I can get Format | Style off the
keyboard, but can't figure out how to use keys to click Modify.

> Now that keyboard nav of the main menu bar in Tiger is very usable,
> that mouseover idea is a step in the wrong direction. There has to be a
> better way to see whether it is a paragraph or character style.
>
> I know I could write a macro to bring up modify style with a keystroke,
> but for a semi-newbie that would be a bit of a nuisance.

Indeed.

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Elliott Roper - 10 Nov 2005 17:13 GMT
> > While you are logging usability bugs, what about the fiendish new way
> > of hiding modify style?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Modify Style to come up with one click?  I can get Format | Style off the
> keyboard, but can't figure out how to use keys to click Modify.

Oh No! I was *dreading* that answer. You really have 'style' still on
format on the top main menu bar? There isn't one on mine. Does this
mean I'll have to google all those "My menu is borked" posts.
<uncontrolled sobbing>

> > Now that keyboard nav of the main menu bar in Tiger is very usable,
> > that mouseover idea is a step in the wrong direction. There has to be a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Indeed.
heh! Looks like we both need that macro. It's good see another
musophobe[1] in here.

A first attempt failed miserably. Simple recording is no good. It won't
let me stop recording in the middle of opening the formatting palette's
modify sheet, and it only wants to record the effect of doing so. Off
to the manuals...

1. OK OK I made that word up. Someone who hates meeces to pieces.

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Beth Rosengard - 10 Nov 2005 18:51 GMT
(Didn't realize the thread name had changed till after I posted on the old
one so ignore my post over there.)

On 11/10/05 9:13 AM, in article 101120051713488783%nospam@yrl.co.uk,

>> Well, it's still there as a menu command. Did you use to be able to get
>> Modify Style to come up with one click?  I can get Format | Style off the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> mean I'll have to google all those "My menu is borked" posts.
> <uncontrolled sobbing>

Are you expecting to see Format>Style>Modify all from the main menu?  That's
not how it works.  You get a dialog box after Format>Style and *then* you
see a radio button for Modify.  Are you not getting the dialog box??

Beth
Elliott Roper - 10 Nov 2005 19:30 GMT
<snip>
> Are you expecting to see Format>Style>Modify all from the main menu?  That's
> not how it works.  You get a dialog box after Format>Style and *then* you
> see a radio button for Modify.  Are you not getting the dialog box??
I really hope we are at cross purposes here.
I have a format menu item, but no style in it. Is that the way it
supposed to be?
Format menu item contains Font.. Paragraph.. Document.. Bullets and
Numbering.. Borders and Shading.. Columns.. Tabs.. Drop Cap.. Text
Direction.. Change Case.. Autoformat... Theme.. Background.. Object...

A complete dog's breakfast, but no 'style...' like there was in v.X
(in between Theme.. and Background...)

Since there were changes in no longer needing the formatting palette to
be open with the font triangle down to make cmd-shift-s do anything
vaguely useful, that it was intentional to hide the modify style dialog
so thoroughly.

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Beth Rosengard - 10 Nov 2005 21:15 GMT
On 11/10/05 11:30 AM, in article 101120051930341174%nospam@yrl.co.uk,

>> Are you expecting to see Format>Style>Modify all from the main menu?  That's
>> not how it works.  You get a dialog box after Format>Style and *then* you
>> see a radio button for Modify.  Are you not getting the dialog box??

> I really hope we are at cross purposes here.
>  I have a format menu item, but no style in it. Is that the way it
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> A complete dog's breakfast, but no 'style...' like there was in v.X
> (in between Theme.. and Background...)

Yep, you're missing the Style entry.  It should still be between Theme and
Background.  In case you've forgotten the fixes for this, here they are.

1)  Tools> Customize> Toolbars.  Select Menu Bar and click Reset.  If that
doesn't do it ...

2) Incinerate Normal :-).

Cheers,

Beth
Daiya Mitchell - 10 Nov 2005 22:11 GMT
> Yep, you're missing the Style entry.  It should still be between Theme and
> Background.  In case you've forgotten the fixes for this, here they are.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> 2) Incinerate Normal :-).

This one is actually nicely named--you can dig FormatStyle out of Tools |
Customize and put it where you like, if you don't want to mess with Normal.

They did deliberately remove it in WinWord at some point, but not in
MacWord.  I jumped through hoops to bring up a default install in a user
account, and it's definitely there.

(You don't have a View | 5.1 Menus entry with a check, do you? That's the
usual "menus wrong" problem in Word 2004, though I didn't think a missing
Format |Style was part of that).

Daiya
Elliott Roper - 11 Nov 2005 00:47 GMT
> > Yep, you're missing the Style entry.  It should still be between Theme and
> > Background.  In case you've forgotten the fixes for this, here they are.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> usual "menus wrong" problem in Word 2004, though I didn't think a missing
> Format |Style was part of that).

Nope. I have a new song (tune by George Gershwin)
"Beth, you is my woman now!"
In other words, resetting the menu bar fixed it. Do see my other post.

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Beth Rosengard - 11 Nov 2005 01:33 GMT
On 11/10/05 4:47 PM, in article 111120050047392779%nospam@yrl.co.uk,

> Nope. I have a new song (tune by George Gershwin)
> "Beth, you is my woman now!"

<vbg>  (But doesn't she die at the end?)

Beth
Elliott Roper - 11 Nov 2005 00:44 GMT
> On 11/10/05 11:30 AM, in article 101120051930341174%nospam@yrl.co.uk,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Yep, you're missing the Style entry.  It should still be between Theme and
> Background.  In case you've forgotten the fixes for this, here they are.

It waasn't so much as forgotten, it was an arrogant "this could not
possibly happen to me" attitude.

> 1)  Tools> Customize> Toolbars.  Select Menu Bar and click Reset.  If that
> doesn't do it ...
But it did. I love you to bits!

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Roger Morris - 11 Nov 2005 09:33 GMT
> <snip>
> > Are you expecting to see Format>Style>Modify all from the main menu?  That's
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Numbering.. Borders and Shading.. Columns.. Tabs.. Drop Cap.. Text
> Direction.. Change Case.. Autoformat... Theme.. Background.. Object...

With a fully updated Word 11.2, I have the above under Format but with
the addition of Style in between Theme and Background.

(I've lost earlier posts so apologies if this is about a different
version)

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Elliott Roper - 11 Nov 2005 16:20 GMT
> > <snip>
> > > Are you expecting to see Format>Style>Modify all from the main menu?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> (I've lost earlier posts so apologies if this is about a different
> version)

Thanks, no, you are right. I was whining about 11.2, and its all fixed
now.

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Clive Huggan - 20 Nov 2005 21:20 GMT
On 12/11/05 3:20 AM, in article 111120051620009300%nospam@yrl.co.uk,

>>> <snip>
>>>> Are you expecting to see Format>Style>Modify all from the main menu?
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Thanks, no, you are right. I was whining about 11.2, and its all fixed
> now.

Just FYI, knowing how you had problems in changing styles by keyboard
shortcut in Word X when the Formatting Palette was not visible, I responded
on my keystroke-only way of modifying styles, Elliott - in the "Inserting
fractions in Times" thread, because I had (on the current thread) an
instance of Entourage's "subject heading gobbles the most recent posts" bug.
Probably means I have to rebuild the $&*#!! database again, and re-allocate
*all* my project settings one by one...  :-\

Clive
=====
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 21 Nov 2005 02:19 GMT
All:

Just make sure you haven't missed the new mechanism that has replaced Modify
Style...

The functionality has been superseded in Word 2004 by a better mechanism on
the Formatting Palette.  Agreed, it's a bit non-intuitive and isn't
explained well in the Help, but it works REALLY well.

If you wish to change the formatting of a style:

1)  Format a paragraph or some text the way you want it.

2)  Select the text with the desired formatting

3)  Display the formatting Palette

4)  Display and scroll to the style you want to change

5)  Drop-down the disclosure triangle for that style

6)  Choose "Update to match selection"

Once you get used to it, this is very quick and extremely powerful:  You can
make ANY style adopt the formatting you have just applied to the paragraph.
You do not have to enable Automatically Update Styles, and you can use it to
copy from one style to another :-)

Hope this helps

On 21/11/05 8:20 AM, in article
BFA733E3.15DC0%REMOVETHISoffice@ANDTHISstrategists.com.au, "Clive Huggan"
<REMOVETHISoffice@ANDTHISstrategists.com.au> wrote:

> On 12/11/05 3:20 AM, in article 111120051620009300%nospam@yrl.co.uk,
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Clive
> =====

Signature

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me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <john@mcghie.name>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh.  Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410

Elliott Roper - 21 Nov 2005 11:05 GMT
> All:
>
> Just make sure you haven't missed the new mechanism that has replaced Modify
> Style...

This one really rattles my cage. It is the world's most hopeless
mis-application of pointy-clicky idiocy.

If you want to change a style, which should be rare indeed, you need to
do it with precision, and in one place. It is a different *kind* of
operation, utterly unrelated to semi-random mouse clicks all over the
application as you change the /look/ of J Random Paragraph, and then
finally press a button that should be labelled "In spite of my better
judgement, I will now trust Word to do what I meant and not what I
clicked when altering my previously carefully crafted style to what
looks vaguely right on screen, and I hereby rescind all claims against
the designer for wrecking the rest of my document."

Fortunately Beth showed me how to get the old behaviour back. Yet I
have a horrible feeling about the next version of Word. There is going
to be lots more of this silliness isn't there?

> The functionality has been superseded in Word 2004 by a better mechanism on
> the Formatting Palette.  Agreed, it's a bit non-intuitive and isn't
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> 5)  Drop-down the disclosure triangle for that style

You omitted to add ".. which is not normally shown. It hides behind
either a big fat lower case a or a pilcrow depending on whether the
original style was character or paragraph until you hover the mouse
over it"

What *were* they thinking of?

> 6)  Choose "Update to match selection"
>
> Once you get used to it, this is very quick and extremely powerful:  You can
> make ANY style adopt the formatting you have just applied to the paragraph.
> You do not have to enable Automatically Update Styles, and you can use it to
> copy from one style to another :-)

I see the smiley. I guess you are being ironic. Why would you *ever*
want to change a style like that? It is nothing more than an invitation
to destroy your document.

And, while we are at it, there is still no way to disable that stupid
alert box that asks whether you want to change the style to match the
formatting. And the only setting you can make is to always allow Word
to butcher your carefully crafted style whenever it feels the urge
coming on too strong.

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CyberTaz - 21 Nov 2005 16:14 GMT
On 11/21/05 6:05 AM, in article 211120051105315125%nospam@yrl.co.uk,

> finally press a button that should be labelled "In spite of my better
> judgement, I will now trust Word to do what I meant and not what I
> clicked when altering my previously carefully crafted style to what
> looks vaguely right on screen, and I hereby rescind all claims against
> the designer for wrecking the rest of my document."

But how could all that possibly be included in a Control Tip Box? And what
kind of icon could conceivably represent it 'intuitively'?

Regards |:>)
Elliott Roper - 21 Nov 2005 16:27 GMT
> On 11/21/05 6:05 AM, in article 211120051105315125%nospam@yrl.co.uk,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Regards |:>)
Heh!
A helix, sharpened at one end.
;-)

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John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 22 Nov 2005 12:08 GMT
Hi Elliott:

Your response is exactly as mine was when I first saw the mechanism :-)

All I can suggest is:  Use it for a while.  You may even have to "force"
yourself to do it the first couple of times.

Once you get used to it, you may find it becomes habit-forming.  I did.

I find I can change styles with exactly the same precision as before
(because the mechanism uses the same commands and dialog boxes...) but less
guesswork (because I can see what I am doing in WYSIWYG while I am working).

Yes, there are several more tools like this coming down the pike.  And the
reason is that the user interface that you and I are used to was too
difficult for people to use.  I'm not saying it was too difficult for
documentation professionals -- it wasn't.  But we make up less than one per
cent of Word's user base.

It was too difficult for the other 99 per cent.  I watched my ex-boss
starting a new document the other night.  She did it all in Normal Style,
using the Font pulldowns from the Format menu.  Now, she is a power-user who
knows about styles and would use them if she could find them.

There are two fundamental changes coming down the pike at us in the next
version:

*  The first is that the user will be less and less aware of what we know of
as "Styles".  Increasingly, these will be replaced by "Building Blocks",
document components chosen from a gallery containing multiple preformatted
objects, which will include paragraphs.  For example, there will be "chunks"
of documents that users can drag into place.

*  The second is that behind the scenes, "styles" will become the only way
that Word does formatting.  What "looks" like direct formatting to the end
user will in fact be a style behind the scenes.

It's going to represent a change in the way you and I work.  All our old
keystrokes and menu access will go.  The change will not really be noticed
by ordinary users.  I've watched ordinary users playing with the PC version
of the new interface: they "notice" that it is new, but they find their way
around it literally within minutes.

Much more importantly, a huge percentage of ordinary users achieve
"precision formatting" very similar to that created by a document
professional, and far faster than they did in previous versions of Word.
They continue to drive Word the way they always have: hack and chop, point
and plop.  But the code that ends up in the document is tight, clean, and
styled :-)

I could go on for pages without really convincing you.  All I can suggest is
that you decide to suspend disbelief until you've have a chance to use the
thing a bit.

I wasn't convinced immediately.  I'm not entirely convinced yet :-)  The
whole implementation is still under development.  It's far from perfect yet.
But it's already better than what we have now.  Far, far better.

Conceptually, it's a real leap forward.  This is one of the truly "great"
achievements in computing.  This gets us several steps forward in putting
the power of the computer in the hands of the people who need it: the users.
This change is massive and its impacts will be reverberating for years.
Those of us in IT have known about the huge improvement in computing power
in the past ten years: it's been obvious to us.  But not to the ordinary
user.  The ordinary user is not creating documents any faster, better,
bigger, or more reliably than they were in WordPerfect ten years ago!  In
the next version, they can.

This is not just new menus and toolbars.  But there are new menus and
toolbars.  There are also a few new things. This is not just a new file
format.  But there is a new file format, that is a quarter the size and
open-standard and human-readable.  This is not just a more efficient way of
doing things, but it is more efficient: the PC early betas are much faster
than the production release of the previous version.  This is the
convergence of a huge amount of work that has been going on all over
Microsoft behind the scenes for the past five or so years.

We're going to have a lot of fun talking about this one.  The Fat Lady
hasn't sung yet: but when she does, I think we'll like the tune :-)

Cheers

On 21/11/05 10:05 PM, in article 211120051105315125%nospam@yrl.co.uk,

>> All:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> to butcher your carefully crafted style whenever it feels the urge
> coming on too strong.

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me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <john@mcghie.name>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh.  Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410

Elliott Roper - 22 Nov 2005 15:12 GMT
> Hi Elliott:
>
> Your response is exactly as mine was when I first saw the mechanism :-)
>
> All I can suggest is:  Use it for a while.  You may even have to "force"
> yourself to do it the first couple of times.
<snip well reasoned optimistic stuff>
I'll try to keep an open mind then.
I'm a curmudgeonly old assembler programmer who never really got all
that excited over the language du jour stuff of the last 25 years.
So often, I could not see the *improvements* that were touted. It's not
till you get a framework that really really works elegantly that the
benefit is obvious. The really elegant stuff is what works well for all
classes of user, from control freak to the happy point and plopper
(I'll pinch that phrase if I may)

I'll hope that that is an analogy for Word 12. It is going to be a
bigger leap for Mac users with the single main menu bar being such a
strong unifying concept absent from Windows.

I'm heartily sick of toolbars in every application I use. I normally
use Word with just one - formatting - cut down to a single button, and
it with only a few pixels peeping out from one edge of the screen.

Would you say the data merge manager is something like the new
interface. A panel with some precision, definite function, that gets
out of your way when you are done with it?

What you are describing sounds a little bit like the inspectors in
OmniGraffle and OmniOutliner. I could almost live with something like
that, as long as there were plenty of ways of driving them from the
keyboard at breakneck speed.

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John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 23 Nov 2005 13:03 GMT
Hi Elliott:

We really don't know what's going to land on the Mac in Office 12 yet.

What we do know, so far, is that there will BE an Office 12 on the Mac, and
it WILL support the new XML file formats coming to the Windows version.

Microsoft has also announced that the Mac version will run on both MacIntel
and PPC.

We should expect that it will not be EXACTLY like the Windows version,
because some of the new user interface widgets, while they have equivalent
classes in OS X, are expressed differently.

The Windows version has some very exciting abilities: they don't sound so
revolutionary on paper, but when you see them working in real life... Well
we had a roomful of equally-curmudgeonly old industry dinosaurs at Redmond
gasping with delight.  This thing is 'eloquent' :-)

Toolbars have gotten way out of control: there will be very few of those in
the next version (basically, only "one", although it has multiple dynamic
sections).  There will be task panes, they will appear when needed and go
away when they're not -- but they're a lot smarter and the likes of you and
I can make custom task panes to our heart's content.

I think you will find that the story on using it from the keyboard is
"mixed".  Yes, you can assign keystrokes to the various widgets, and if you
do, you can drive it rapidly (it's very fast compared to the current
version) from the keyboard.  However, I think you will find that if you do,
you will be doing far too much typing just to specify what you want to
happen.

Since you're an unreconstructed bit-twiddler, think "Data Dictionary for
Documents".  You have layered, dynamic "galleries" of pieces of document
that you either double-click or drag into position.  Many of the pieces are
fairly complex assemblies, and they can be positioned independently of the
text.  I am not sure I would want to type all the parameters involved :-)

But for you and I, building "Document Types" for end-users, this thing
enables stunts we could only dream about previously.  If you get into the
native XML (and you can...) you can create documents with a concept similar
to a "make file", and specify multiple transforms enabling output to a
variety of devices.  And no matter what the end user does to it, it will
hang together and work properly.  Man, lemme at it... :-)

BTW:  Why doncha send me your email address and phone number?  Otherwise
I'll get Huggan onto you...

Cheers

On 23/11/05 2:12 AM, in article 221120051512107093%nospam@yrl.co.uk,

>> Hi Elliott:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> that, as long as there were plenty of ways of driving them from the
> keyboard at breakneck speed.

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John McGhie <john@mcghie.name>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh.  Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410

Daiya Mitchell - 10 Nov 2005 22:30 GMT
>>> I know I could write a macro to bring up modify style with a keystroke,
>>> but for a semi-newbie that would be a bit of a nuisance.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> A first attempt failed miserably.

Mine too.  

>  It's good see another
> musophobe[1] in here.

> 1. OK OK I made that word up. Someone who hates meeces to pieces.

Thanks, had a really good laugh at that one. Though in fact I don't mind my
mouse at all, except for the incipient carpal tunnel.

Daiya
Barry Wainwright [MVP] - 24 Nov 2005 16:11 GMT
On 10/11/05 17:13, in article 101120051713488783%nospam@yrl.co.uk, "Elliott
Roper" <nospam@yrl.co.uk> wrote:

> 1. OK OK I made that word up. Someone who hates meeces to pieces.

If you made it up, that's pretty good. The correct word is a Musophobe or
Muriphobe

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Seen the All-New Entourage Help Pages? - Check them out:
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Beth Rosengard - 10 Nov 2005 18:45 GMT
On 11/10/05 1:33 AM, in article 101120050933416708%nospam@yrl.co.uk,

> What was wrong with the old format->style->modify?

It's still there!  Did it used to be accessible with a keyboard shortcut by
default?  I'm a mouse person so I wouldn't have noticed.

Beth
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 18 Nov 2005 09:44 GMT
Hi Elliott:

Hmmm...  Yeah...  Format>Style did went away!

Regrettably, 50,000 blowflies CAN be wrong -- and this is one of the times
they were!  (The rest of the world just talk quietly amongst yourselves:
that's a reference to a bit of Australian, just to make our favourite expat
homesick :-))

Useability research has now conclusively proved that 99.99 per cent of users
do not know what "Styles" are, and care less.  Since they were running out
of room on the user interface, MS seized the opportunity to remove that from
the menu to make room for yet more inane eye-candy to entertain the clueless
(oops...)

Frankly, Word 2004 is a breath of fresh air if you spend all day in Word
2003, where it's REALLY buried... :-)

In Word 2004, you can easily put the thing back if you want it: it's in
Tools>Customise>Toolbars and Menus>All Commands, named "FormatStyle".  Drag
it up to a toolbar.

Or, you can simply re-apply any style you want to change.  If you do, Word
will prompt you whether you want to modify it.

Me, I got used to the disclosure triangle.  It was a long step for me to get
used to the Formatting Palette/Task Pain(!) but having done so, a quick
click fixes most things for me :-)

Cheers

On 10/11/05 8:33 PM, in article 101120050933416708%nospam@yrl.co.uk,

>> {Thud!!}  Slowly picks jaw up from the floor...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> I know I could write a macro to bring up modify style with a keystroke,
> but for a semi-newbie that would be a bit of a nuisance.

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me unless I ask you to.

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Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh.  Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

Daiya Mitchell - 19 Nov 2005 04:41 GMT
> Hi Elliott:
>
> Hmmm...  Yeah...  Format>Style did went away!

Only in WinWord 2002/2003, John, presumably as an attempt to force people to
use the Win equivalent of the Formatting Palette.  Still there in default
configurations of MacWord 2004, thankfully.

Daiya
Elliott Roper - 19 Nov 2005 10:57 GMT
> > Hi Elliott:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Daiya

I'm not so sure. Mine had to be put back in after a default install.
Maybe it starts off giuded by the compatibility settings. Or maybe Word
likes to tease the unwary.

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Daiya Mitchell - 19 Nov 2005 13:14 GMT
>>> Hmmm...  Yeah...  Format>Style did went away!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Maybe it starts off giuded by the compatibility settings. Or maybe Word
> likes to tease the unwary.

Or maybe yours accidentally got terminated while invoking cmd-opt-minus.  I
checked in a new user account, where I deliberately (with some hassle)
unloaded my global templates so it was a completely default install.  It's
still there.  Confirmed by others.

Daiya
Elliott Roper - 19 Nov 2005 20:34 GMT
> >>> Hmmm...  Yeah...  Format>Style did went away!
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> unloaded my global templates so it was a completely default install.  It's
> still there.  Confirmed by others.

Heh!. I'm not betting real money against that proposition. I'm
constantly amazed that worse things have not happened while typing the
right shortcut into the wrong application. ;-)

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Clive Huggan - 20 Nov 2005 20:46 GMT
>>>>> Hmmm...  Yeah...  Format>Style did went away!
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> constantly amazed that worse things have not happened while typing the
> right shortcut into the wrong application. ;-)

Elliott,

When I want to modify a style (which is frequently, as you know, because of
the needs of disparate clients) I simply use the time-honoured sequence:

1.  Make the changes manually in a paragraph styled with the style I want to
modify.

2.  Click in the styles pop-down menu and press Return (the Formatting
Palette doesn't have to be open to do this, unlike what I understand was the
situation in Word X ­ in fact, having gone straight from Word 2001 to 2004,
I have never had to use the FP).

3.  Click Return to affirmatively answer the "update style?" question.

When I want to change the template or style inheritances, I use Format menu
-> Style (for which I use a keyboard shortcut, of course).

FYI.

Cheers,

Clive
=======
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 21 Nov 2005 02:23 GMT
The mechanism Clive refers to has been extended to the Formatting Palette in
Word 2004, where some will find it easier to find and use...

Agreed, it's a bit non-intuitive and isn't explained well in the Help, but
it works REALLY well.

If you wish to change the formatting of a style:

1)  Format a paragraph or some text the way you want it.

2)  Select the text with the desired formatting

3)  Display the formatting Palette

4)  Display and scroll to the style you want to change

5)  Drop-down the disclosure triangle for that style

6)  Choose "Update to match selection"

Once you get used to it, this is very quick and extremely powerful:  You can
make ANY style adopt the formatting you have just applied to the paragraph.
You do not have to enable Automatically Update Styles, and you can use it to
copy from one style to another :-)

Hope this helps

On 21/11/05 7:46 AM, in article
BFA72BD8.15DBD%REMOVETHISoffice@ANDTHISstrategists.com.au, "Clive Huggan"
<REMOVETHISoffice@ANDTHISstrategists.com.au> wrote:

>>>>>> Hmmm...  Yeah...  Format>Style did went away!
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> Clive
> =======

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Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh.  Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410

Elliott Roper - 21 Nov 2005 12:09 GMT
> >>>>> Hmmm...  Yeah...  Format>Style did went away!

> Elliott,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> situation in Word X ­ in fact, having gone straight from Word 2001 to 2004,
> I have never had to use the FP).

Here it is changed. I no longer need the formatting palette on screen.
Now I need the formatting toolbar. Progress ain't what it used to be.
Fortunately I can throw everything off it but the style name box. But I
still need it on sreen for cmd-shift-s to do anything sensible.

> 3.  Click Return to affirmatively answer the "update style?" question.
>
> When I want to change the template or style inheritances, I use Format menu
> -> Style (for which I use a keyboard shortcut, of course).

Yeah, I know. I just got stuck into McGhie on a similar subject.

I'll reluctantly admit that method could be used once a year when
setting up the first rough draft of templates for a new customer.
Otherwise, I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. It is a recipe for
having a document go feral on you, minutes before a deadline.

The more I see of the direction Word is going, the better LaTeX is
looking.

Why should I have to go to so much trouble to lock down the styles of a
series of documents?

Seriously, the gap between professional and casual use needs to be made
more explicit rather than less. Styles and templates are the chief
tools in getting consistent design across a company's or customer's
documents. They are so firmly at the professional end of Word's
repertoire that if ever anything needed to be precise, lockable and
non-clicky it is those.

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John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] - 06 Nov 2005 08:22 GMT
Barbara:

In Character Palette, you are looking at the Unicode character set, which
will show you every character a font has.  If the people at Apple had looked
in the Apple Mac Help for the phrase "character palette" they would have
found a topic telling them how to do all of this.

Older Mac applications do not fully support Unicode.  In other words, they
will "use" Unicode fonts, but they will display and print only the
characters from the old Mac character set.

You have not said which version of Mac OS or Word you have.  People:  Give
us a little help here: we CANNOT read your screen from here!!  If you WON'T
tell us which versions of things you are running, we really can't help:
every version is different.  Word 2004 is the first version of Word that
supports the fraction characters (Unicode hexadecimal 2153 through 215F).

If your browser or news client can correctly display Unicode, the fraction
characters for Lucida Grande appear here:  ⅓ ⅔ ⅕ ⅖ ⅗ ⅘ ⅙ ⅚ ⅛ ⅜ ⅝ ⅞ ⅟

People who see only gobbledy-gook at the end of the sentence above, either
their reader does not support Unicode, or they do not have any fonts
installed that contain those characters.  There should be 13 characters
there :-)

To use them in Word 2004, place your insertion point where you want the
character, display the character palette, choose the character, and click
Insert With Font.

Please note:  Character Palette shows you "characters, wherever they are".
This does NOT mean that the characters are in any given font: Character
Palette will first find the character, then tell you which font it is in.
Most of them are in Lucida Grande on the Mac.  To get them from Times New
Roman, you would have to load a PC version of Times New Roman.

The font "Times" is an old Mac font that contains only the one half, one
quarter and three quarters fraction characters.

Hope this helps

On 5/11/05 3:48 PM, in article BF9187AA.12F%barbervln@aol.com, "Barbara
Barber" <barbervln@aol.com> wrote:

>  I need help with inserting fractions from the character palette. I see all
> kinds of fractions there in every font but can't get them into Word,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> say they don't have a character palette.  My iMac G4 has one but it seems
> unusable.

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CyberTaz - 06 Nov 2005 16:44 GMT
Hi Folks- Especially Barbara & Elliott

Just a few comments to add:

Barbara;

Although you don't mention which version of Word you're using,

> My iMac G4 has one

Suggests that you are using OS X, one version or another. As John indicated,
the problem you are having may stem from an older version of Word, but even
2004 will not provide fractions other than 1/4, 1/2 & 3/4 in the Times
font... Especially if it is an older version of Times that migrated with you
from OS 9. You might try using Times New Roman, instead of Times.

To go a little farther with the Character Palette:

A) make sure View: is set to Roman with 'by Category' selected
B) click the triangle for Font Variation to expand that portion of the
palette
C) set Collections: to 'Containing selected character'.

That will enable you to select a Category, click on a character/symbol, and
see what installed font collections contain that character.

Elliott;

FWIW- I'm using InDesign CS, & the Character Palette seems to work with no
problem... Assuming the correct font is used for the character desired.

Regards |:>)
Elliott Roper - 06 Nov 2005 17:49 GMT

> Elliott;
>
> FWIW- I'm using InDesign CS, & the Character Palette seems to work with no
> problem... Assuming the correct font is used for the character desired.

Thanks. I suspected it might. I'm still on the original InDesign2.

Its always tricky deciding when it makes sense to get a later version
isn't it?

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CyberTaz - 06 Nov 2005 18:04 GMT
On 11/6/05 12:49 PM, in article 061120051749143611%nospam@yrl.co.uk,

>> Its always tricky deciding when it makes sense to get a later version
>> isn't it?

You bet... Especially when the shekels come out of your own pocket!
Un/Fortunately I don't have much of a choice as I _have_ to stay current on
everything, although my employer foots the bill for versions on the PC side.
Since I prefer Mac, I have to pay for most of those upgrades, myself... CS2
is on my Christmas List.

Regards |:>)
Elliott Roper - 06 Nov 2005 19:01 GMT
> On 11/6/05 12:49 PM, in article 061120051749143611%nospam@yrl.co.uk,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Since I prefer Mac, I have to pay for most of those upgrades, myself... CS2
> is on my Christmas List.

Heh! You need to upgrade your employer to the Mac version.

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CyberTaz - 06 Nov 2005 19:13 GMT
On 11/6/05 2:01 PM, in article 061120051901585449%nospam@yrl.co.uk, "Elliott
Roper" <nospam@yrl.co.uk> wrote:

>> On 11/6/05 12:49 PM, in article 061120051749143611%nospam@yrl.co.uk,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Heh! You need to upgrade your employer to the Mac version.

Unfortunately, our business panders to the masses rather than catering to
the elite :)

Regards |:>)
 
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