Bug still exists in Office 2008
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Michael_W@officeformac.com - 27 Jun 2008 23:16 GMT Version: 2008 Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) Processor: intel
There is a known bug in Office 2008 which manifests itself if you are using two monitors. If you switch between Word and Entourage, the Word window on the secondary monitor shrinks to an unusable size, and then has to be re-sized to see the page again. This is so frustrating.
The update released this week - 12.1.1 - does not fix the problem, which has been known pretty much since Office 2008 was released, as there are a number of posts on various forums reporting its existence.
Is Microsoft addressing this issue?
John McGhie - 28 Jun 2008 10:30 GMT Hi Michael:
Microsoft will not tell us whether or not they are working on any given issue.
Often, they do not know themselves: the way they work, they will open a code module to "do things" and may fix several issues with the change they make; some of which they did not even realise were caused by that code module.
The most they will ever tell us is that they have (or have not) got a bug open on the issue. In this case, they have told us that they do have a bug on it.
There remains a group of bugs that are caused by Spaces. Office 2008 was not designed for Spaces, which nobody knew about until OS 10.5 arrived.
So Office 2008 does not work right with Spaces. I think this may be one of those issues. If it is, then you are waiting for changes by both Apple and Microsoft.
Microsoft may have already made its changes and be waiting for Apple.
Again: They won't tell us if that is the case.
Cheers
On 28/06/08 7:46 AM, in article 59b5293d.-1@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
> Version: 2008 > Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Is Microsoft addressing this issue?
 Signature Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/
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Phillip Jones - 28 Jun 2008 16:37 GMT I'm am still laughing from you comment about MicroSoft. You are the first person associated in some way with MS to admit that the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing at MS.
I laughed so hard I almost peed in my pants.
Finally someone that can speak with brutal honesty. :D
> Hi Michael: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> >> Is Microsoft addressing this issue?
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling 616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868 Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet ------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
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Michel Bintener - 29 Jun 2008 14:24 GMT On 28/06/08 17:37, in article #xZXgTT2IHA.3920@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl,
> I'm am still laughing from you comment about MicroSoft. You are the > first person associated in some way with MS to admit that the right hand > doesn't know what the left hand is doing at MS. Phillip,
I don't know how many times you have already been told that MVPs are *not* associated with Microsoft. MVPs do not represent Microsoft, nor are they obliged to defend Microsoft's point of view. The MVP title is an award, a way of saying "thank you" for the technical support which a number of users have provided in a number of different ways (such as posting in this newsgroup here), and that's it.
 Signature Michel Bintener Microsoft MVP Office:mac (Entourage & Word)
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CyberTaz - 29 Jun 2008 15:30 GMT ... And you've also twisted John's words to support your paranoia:-) He didn't state - nor did he imply - that the right hand doesn't know what the left is up to. In fact, his comments weren't about the personnel at all. He was referring to the nature of revising complex code.
The point made was that revisions to any given module may have an impact on the behavior of other aspects of the application even though the ones doing the revision may not have intended or expected it to happen - nor is there any reasonable expectation that they should. IOW, revising any part of a body of code as complex as Word's is as likely to cause unexpected fixes as it is to inadvertently induce new bugs.
I sincerely hope, however, that nobody comes back with a retarded, knee-jerk reply to the effect of "they *should* know", because that is a literal impossibility. The overwhelming majority of Word's [millions of lines of] code was written before most of the current staff even knew what word processing is, let alone went to work for MS.
Sorry for the rant, but it just irritates the ---- out of me the way some people (not necessarily you, Phillip) focus on individual, often minor flaws with such myopic tunnel vision as though it is the end of the world as they know it - all the while expecting the rest of the world to be omniscient, omnipotent & flawless - without any effort to consider the enormity or complexity of the infrastructure in which that little speed bump occurs.
Regards |:>) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac
On 6/29/08 9:24 AM, in article C48D59A6.10E01%mbintener@NOmvpsSPAM.org,
> On 28/06/08 17:37, in article #xZXgTT2IHA.3920@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > have provided in a number of different ways (such as posting in this > newsgroup here), and that's it. Phillip Jones - 29 Jun 2008 16:20 GMT > ... And you've also twisted John's words to support your paranoia:-) He > didn't state - nor did he imply - that the right hand doesn't know what the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Bob Jones > [MVP] Office:Mac It just the fact that someone associated in someway even if on the periphery with MS, would actually admit a chink in the Armour of of MS, ever how small.
I freely admit Apple's not perfect. Never has been never ever will be. But there is something about the MS following That they can never do anything wrong. They are the next thing to the second coming. His comment just struck me funny.
I use Ms Products on my Mac because they are the best currently available. There is a a lot of free stuff out there and I tinker with it. But, I always come back. But using Ms Products I don't know why I feel like am relegated to second class citizenship. And get the impression that MS is proud of that fact.
> On 6/29/08 9:24 AM, in article C48D59A6.10E01%mbintener@NOmvpsSPAM.org, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> have provided in a number of different ways (such as posting in this >> newsgroup here), and that's it.
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling 616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868 Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet ------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
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Barry Wainwright - 29 Jun 2008 21:42 GMT > But there is something about the MS following That they can never do > anything wrong. They are the next thing to the second coming. Personally, I find that statement quite insulting.
I am no sort of apologist for MS - they are big enough to fight their own battles.
I got an MVP award because I was good at helping other users sort out the problems they were having with MS programmes. I am, at appropriate times, a voluble critic of MS products, marketing and business practises. I am here to support users, not MS.
 Signature Barry Wainwright Microsoft MVP
Phillip Jones - 30 Jun 2008 14:43 GMT Good, Excellent!
The comment wasn't necessarily meant for you. Nor to any particular individual, MVP's or not.
But there thousands or perhaps millions of people in MS land that have that feeling stated.
If everyone would get over the notion that any, one, Software company can do no wrong, and would actually criticize mistakes then and the companies be made to listen all software would be better.
>> But there is something about the MS following That they can never do >> anything wrong. They are the next thing to the second coming. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > times, a voluble critic of MS products, marketing and business > practices. I am here to support users, not MS.
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling 616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868 Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet ------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
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CyberTaz - 30 Jun 2008 17:10 GMT Truth be told, Phillip, I find that the MS "can do no wrong" camp is far more sparsely populated than the "MS can do no *right*" legions:-)
Regards |:>) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac
On 6/30/08 9:43 AM, in article ujENLdr2IHA.6096@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl,
> Good, Excellent! > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> times, a voluble critic of MS products, marketing and business >> practices. I am here to support users, not MS. Phillip Jones - 30 Jun 2008 21:35 GMT You must hang around some different place than I've run into .:-) :-) :-)
> Truth be told, Phillip, I find that the MS "can do no wrong" camp is far > more sparsely populated than the "MS can do no *right*" legions:-) [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >>> times, a voluble critic of MS products, marketing and business >>> practices. I am here to support users, not MS.
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling 616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868 Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet ------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
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Phillip Jones - 29 Jun 2008 16:11 GMT Michael,
You and the rest of the MVP's, I am well aware are not paid personnel of Microsoft.
But as long as you have the MVP title, even if it is an *Honorary* title still do represent in some way Microsoft. You (the MVP's) are the first line of support for MicroSoft Products. As MVP's you represent MS more than I do. You are the *Cream of the Crop*. And if you used this *advantage to constantly dis MS you would not have your MVP status removed when it was time to renew.
Your program is similar to a program Mozilla had called the champions program.
They all had to sign Non Disclosure Agreements. But by doing so they were allowed to give support to Netscape and then to Mozilla products. often times they were allowed to borrow pre-release of products to use to test for bugs, and they could freely give feedback for any bugs they encounter. Now that Mozilla products are open source and there are so many component owners the Champs program is now impractical. Adobe has something similar to yours for there forums as well.
I guess you could consider yourselves as *Super Users*.
But facts are facts *you do represent MS* whether you want to admit it or not. Even if not in an *official* capacity.
> On 28/06/08 17:37, in article #xZXgTT2IHA.3920@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > have provided in a number of different ways (such as posting in this > newsgroup here), and that's it.
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling 616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868 Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet ------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
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Jim Gordon MVP - 29 Jun 2008 16:24 GMT Re: MVPs
> I guess you could consider yourselves as *Super Users*. > > But facts are facts *you do represent MS* whether you want to admit it > or not. Even if not in an *official* capacity. This is backwards. It might be fair to say MVPs represent certain kinds of users to Microsoft, not the other way around.
=Jim
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Phillip Jones - 29 Jun 2008 21:17 GMT Okay then MS considers you *Super Users*. :-)
> Re: MVPs > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > =Jim
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling 616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868 Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet ------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
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Jim Gordon MVP - 30 Jun 2008 17:54 GMT > Okay then MS considers you *Super Users*. :-) > >> Re: MVPs >> >>> I guess you could consider yourselves as *Super Users*. Microsoft has never described the MVPs like that and I certainly don't consider myself a *super user.*
I use Apple and Microsoft products day in and day out. For my job I use Microsoft Office a lot - probably 4 to 5 hours per day. It's a 25 year old product, and I've been using it daily for about 15 of those 25 years, so I am familiar with those aspects of it that I use a lot.
I'm also willing to help others if I happen to know something about an inquiry made in a public forum such as these newsgroups, newly christened "communities" as well as Yahoo answers and random other forums.
A primary aspect of the MVP program is that it is a "thank you" program - meaning Microsoft says "thank you" publicly to those who it recognizes as having given their own time to help out in public forums (or podcasts, books, magazine articles, the web, or other forum).
My involvement is not all altruism. I learn far more from reading the Q&A in the newsgroups than I give out. So for me it is a learning experience. But I only represent myself - not Microsoft. Nor my employer.
In the software business there is a constant exchange and interaction between the company (product managers, developers, sales, etc) and their customers. The nature of software allows for greater interaction than might be possible for an appliance such as a toaster, but the concept is the same - a consumer panel.
MVPs are only a part of the consumer panel. Yes, we get beta versions and offer our opinions about the software, but we're only one channel. If there's one aspect of this that I think the MVPs are good at is that we can explain to the developers what we we want in their own language. Sometimes we can help them understand what is going wrong or what we would like to have happen when they "just don't get it."
My experience has been that anyone who is willing to become an active participant in developing future versions of software can have a say in upcoming products.
Apple and Microsoft are incredibly open to this. You can always use Send feedback on any Microsoft product's help menu, and that gets read by product managers. Apple and Microsoft often have public betas. People who send good feedback are sometimes invited into private betas (smaller groups).
If someone is actively participating in positive ways in betas and public discussion then chances are good they will be recognized as MVPs.
There's still a great need for more MVPs. The Microsoft newsgroups are fairly well served right now, and there is an Entourage forum that MVPs participate in. But daily I cringe when I visit Yahoo Answers and see hundreds of questions posted getting very uneven response quality. There's a group of people who answer just about every question regarding Microsoft products with get OpenOffice (and then recommend inappropriate versions and sites to download it from!). Or they promote their own products for sale that sometimes do stuff that can be done for free.
I wish a lot more people would pitch in and help out answering questions from the public at large. We MVPs don't know it all and welcome all comers who offer reliable answers consistently over time. Those who do are likely to be recognized as MVPs.
-Jim
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Phillip Jones - 30 Jun 2008 21:38 GMT I try on occasion. But then I get the feeling I'm am just a dub a.. outsider :-( I usually post what I run into from personal experience. Maybe that's the problem :-(
>> Okay then MS considers you *Super Users*. :-) >> [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > -Jim
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If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
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Barry Wainwright - 29 Jun 2008 21:28 GMT > You are the *Cream of the Crop*. And if you used this > *advantage to constantly dis MS you would not have your MVP status > removed when it was time to renew. I sat in a conference room listening to Bill G a few years back, when he stated that "you MVPs are our most respected critics..."!
 Signature Barry Wainwright Microsoft MVP
John McGhie - 30 Jun 2008 10:28 GMT No Phillip:
I do NOT represent Microsoft in ANY way.
I am here to help other users of the software. That's it. And I am representing ME. Which is why I am complaining about you trying to pretend that I am representing Microsoft. I am not representing Microsoft. If I were, I would not be allowed to retain the MVP title.
I think Microsoft personnel would be the first to confirm that I *do* consistently dis both Microsoft and its products :-) Far more vigorously in private than I do in public, I might add...
Sorry mate: you got it wrong this time. Please don't do that again :-)
Cheers
On 30/06/08 12:41 AM, in article OlRLdpf2IHA.5512@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl,
> Michael, > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> have provided in a number of different ways (such as posting in this >> newsgroup here), and that's it.
 Signature Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/
Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.
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Tim Murray - 30 Jun 2008 05:11 GMT > Office 2008 was not designed for Spaces, which nobody > knew about until OS 10.5 arrived. But didn't Microsoft get seed builds? And vice versa: Seems at least a few folks at Apple would have been on Microsoft's Office beta program.
John McGhie - 30 Jun 2008 10:42 GMT Hi Tim:
I believe they did get seed builds, although I can't confirm that because I never saw one.
However, seed builds do not usually contain the new WOW!! stuff they want to "impress" the punters with by making a big splash at release time.
I am sure you can understand that Apple would be somewhat less than likely to send a build containing a major new and unannounced feature to its major competitor: Chinese Walls are made of paper, and they know it :-)
The other major issue we all need to understand is that in order to work correctly with Spaces, an application needs to be designed for it: the architecture of its user interface must be "Spaces Compatible". Don't ask me what "spaces compatible" means: but I think many applications 'got lucky' in that their UI was spaces compatible completely by accident.
Making that kind of change on an application as old as Word is a lengthy business: probably two years, from beginning of design to end of debugging.
So even if Spaces was included in one of the seed builds sent to Microsoft, MS would not have had enough time to respond to this feature.
The really bad news is that, given that spaces compatibility requires an architectural change, and given that a responsible software vendor does not make major changes such as architectural changes in service releases, what we have now may be as good as it is going to get until the next version. Obviously, I cannot be sure. But I would consider it highly likely that this is as close as Office 2008 will come to spaces compatibility.
Hope that helps.
On 30/06/08 1:41 PM, in article 0001HW.C48DD53500233F8EF0182648@news.microsoft.com, "Tim Murray" <no-spam@thankyou.com> wrote:
>> Office 2008 was not designed for Spaces, which nobody >> knew about until OS 10.5 arrived. > > But didn't Microsoft get seed builds? And vice versa: Seems at least a few > folks at Apple would have been on Microsoft's Office beta program.
 Signature Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/
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Michael_W@officeformac.com - 29 Jun 2008 15:58 GMT Nobody has addressed the substance of my issue.
Bob Jones - Microsoft should know about the issue, because this message is posted in a Microsoft-hosted forum. Perhaps some of the good MVP volunteers could volunteer to tell Microsoft about it? Furthermore, it is, with respect, not a minor flaw, but a major impediment to use of the product on dual monitors.
CyberTaz - 30 Jun 2008 01:08 GMT Michael -
Sorry if you took it personally, but my reply was to Phillip & made no reference to your issue whatsoever. I'm sure it is a significant matter for you as well as quite a few others, but the "substance" of it hasn't been addressed because nobody here has the where-with-all to address it.
For clarification, MS "provides" the server space, it doesn't "host" the forum. This is a user-to-user public support newsgroup. Some members of MacBU do occasionally dip a toe in the water, but this is not monitored by anyone from MS in the manner some might think. Its sole purpose is to assist others with the use of the respective app as it currently stands.
If you have a legitimate complaint or reasonable feature request your comments will be far more effective if you use the Send Feedback feature in the Help menu of each Office program. The data received through *that* venue is monitored by the developers, engineers & decision makers at MS who have real say about what happens down the road.
As John McGhie replied to your op, however, even when MVPs report issues to MS we are not privy to what they address or when, nor do we have any control over the matter once it's been reported. I understand your point and I have no doubt that the matter is being addressed in some way, but we'll all have to wait for whatever the outcome might be. For anyone here to offer anything substantive would be irresponsible speculation.
Regards |:>) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac
On 6/29/08 10:58 AM, in article 59b5293d.4@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
> Nobody has addressed the substance of my issue. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > not a minor flaw, but a major impediment to use of the product on dual > monitors. John McGhie - 30 Jun 2008 10:24 GMT Hi Michael:
I addressed your issue :-)
I don't think expecting me to put in your bug reports for you is a useful expenditure of your time :-) You are as capable of using "Send Feedback" as I am, and you understand your issue far better than I do.
However, as you state yourself, this issue has been bugged already. So now, we all simply have to wait for it to come to the top of the list of things they have to fix (which is sorted by bug impact).
You can accelerate that process by making more reports of this using Send Feedback. In this case, it's better that you do than that *I* do -- I give them so much grief that any report from "me" is bound to be shuffled to the bottom of the pile :-)
Cheers
On 30/06/08 12:28 AM, in article 59b5293d.4@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
> Nobody has addressed the substance of my issue. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > not a minor flaw, but a major impediment to use of the product on dual > monitors.
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