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Mac Forum / Applications / Media Player / January 2006Microsoft: Real KingMaker
So Microsoft has: *) Dropped WMP for Mac *) Refused a DRM license to Flip4Mac (?) I am part of a company that does preview and feature distribution for the professional and consumer circuit. Microsoft just killed any chance of doing that on the Mac, so what will we do? The only thing we can do is use Real instead, it's the only cross platform DRM now right? Really seems a dumb move, because MS simply has no shot at the professional set. There is no answer for FinalCut right now, and with the MacBook and the Intel move, Apple's market share (especially in these spaces) is likely to go up. And if FrontRow doesn't stink, they start to get a foothold in the living room. And *now*, after all this time of building WMP-Mac when few people cared, they bail. Seems really stupid, unless they have a plan to help Flip4Mac do it for them. What a strange world it is when Real provides the most "secure, open, and cross platform" media system. >So Microsoft has: > *) Dropped WMP for Mac Technically, they're not developing the product any more - I can see how you'd prefer not to make this distinction, but afaik WMP9 will remain available for download into the forseeable future. I'll be asking shortly just how long forseeable is going to last, hopefully there will be information available soon. But certainly the current application for Mac has no discernable "timeout" so I can't see it suddenly stopping working. Having trouble reading the Flip FAQs about this, they seem a little inconclusive, but I read on one that WMP is required to be installed for it to operate - though other FAQs just imply it's a codec set for QT which is what I thought we were getting. > *) Refused a DRM license to Flip4Mac (?) Are you sure about that ? You know the Flip4 people personally and the CTO told you that ? I can't see any press release which states the above ... I'd like to read up more on this information if you have it. Indeed it seems to be mandated (and I'll be asking about this directly and pushing for) "Scripting and digital rights management (DRM) must be supported by any application that renders Windows Media files." http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/wmplay10/mmp_sd k/filenameextensions.asp >I am part of a company that does preview and feature distribution for the >professional and consumer circuit. Microsoft just killed any chance of >doing that on the Mac, so what will we do? The only thing we can do is use >Real instead, it's the only cross platform DRM now right? I guess we could all shout at Apple to release Fairplay for 'security review' and place its interfaces in the public domain ? >Really seems a dumb move, because MS simply has no shot at the professional >set. There is no answer for FinalCut right now, and with the MacBook and >the Intel move, Apple's market share (especially in these spaces) is likely >to go up. And if FrontRow doesn't stink, they start to get a foothold in >the living room. And *now*, after all this time of building WMP-Mac when >few people cared, they bail. Interestingly enough, with the advent of Intel based Macs, I wonder if there will be the equivalent of "Wine" available to run WMP10 on an intel mac emulating windows ? >Seems really stupid, unless they have a plan to help Flip4Mac do it for >them. > >What a strange world it is when Real provides the most "secure, open, and >cross platform" media system. Interesting points. Cheers, Neil My Flip4Mac assertion was more provoking than researched. I couldn't find any mention of DRM, and found some posts talking about how MSFT would need to actively allow Flip4Mac to use DRM. While WMP9 won't die, it's kind of already dead for DRM stuff given it's v1 DRM. I think all of Apple's actions around FairPlay are disguisting, especially in the context of the antitrust suit against Microsoft. I haven't seen the latest numbers, but I thought Apple had a general monopoly in the portable music player game, and here they are doing worse than what MSFT did, in that they're even suing people who find ways to play with their hardware. I'll always respect the Apple industrial and interface designers, and maybe ATG or whatever is left of it... The rest of it... I'm pushing for some of the same answers you are, if you think it would be useful to coordinate our pressing of the WM team, email me. --Max >>So Microsoft has: >> *) Dropped WMP for Mac [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > Interesting points. > Cheers, Neil Let's face it. MS does not want to help the competition -- Apple (or Linux vendors). At least that is how it looks based on the following: 1) MS has not updated IE for the Mac for quite some time. The last version is IE 5.1. Since many website require IR 5.5 or later, Apple users cannot view many websites. 2) MS has not released MS Messenger with WebCam support. Most users (especially teenagers) want to use Messenger with webcams. I guess the teenagers must stick with MS Windows. (Some users might have some luck with third party apps like Mercury to provide a Messeengerv compatible Chat client with webcam support. But in my view, don't expect MS to release one soon, if ever). 3) It looks like MS has stopped supporting WMP9 for the Mac quite some time ago. There is Flip4Mac which is still a little buggy. And it does not look like MS wants Apple users to access DRM WMF content. (If they did, WMP9 would hev been updated a long time ago). I guess you better keep your Windows PC for that. (But we can only hope that MS licenses this DRM technology to the Flip4 Mac folks). In my view, this strategy enables MS to provide reasons for users to stick with Windows. There is Office for the Mac. Yes it is still supported and sold my MS. If MS stopped selling Office for the Mac, Apple sales would be adversely affected. MS needs to keep some comepetition around. (Or maybe Apple made some sort of deal with MS to keep Office for the Mac properly supported). Rob >Let's face it. MS does not want to help the competition -- Apple (or >Linux vendors). At least that is how it looks based on the following: I guess, if there was a business case for it they would. WMP9 and Messenger etc are -or were - free (as in beer) products until these annoucements. I'm assuming they're concentrating on the Mac BU as a "business" unit, not a all-mac-software unit. >1) MS has not updated IE for the Mac for quite some time. The last >version is IE 5.1. Since many website require IR 5.5 or later, Apple >users cannot view many websites. As a web developer, you have no idea how happy we all are that Mac/IE is finally dead. It's been a really hard journey supporting the inconsistencies between that and the PC browsers - and though MacIE was in som ways better written than IE5.5 et al, it's no competition for modern, standards compliant browsers like Firefox, Safari, Camino. In some ways, they did you a favour LOL >2) MS has not released MS Messenger with WebCam support. However in a thriving software environment, does it do any good to have a giant monopoly ? I mean - for web chat, JMeeting is cross platform (or at least has releases like Ashcast that are) and supports standard IRC chat clients. >3) It looks like MS has stopped supporting WMP9 for the Mac quite some Very true. >time ago. There is Flip4Mac which is still a little buggy. And it Actually getting less buggy very rapidly. They relased 2.0 a few weeks ago which was the current free version. They day after release, Apple silently released QT7.0.4, which caused crashes in the 2.0 Flip. That was fixed within about a week, far faster than you'd get fixes from a large scale vendor like Apple or MS. >does not look like MS wants Apple users to access DRM WMF content. We still haven't established that, so let's stick to the facts for now >they did, WMP9 would hev been updated a long time ago). I guess you >better keep your Windows PC for that. (But we can only hope that MS [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Rob > As a web developer, you have no idea how happy we all are that Mac/IE > is finally dead. It's been a really hard journey supporting the > inconsistencies between that and the PC browsers - and though MacIE > was in som ways better written than IE5.5 et al, it's no competition > for modern, standards compliant browsers like Firefox, Safari, Camino. I could have lived with a newer improved Mac IE. IE had some features that weren't that bad. In the MacOS 9 days, it was one of the best browsers out there on the Mac IMVHO. (it's true though that it didn't improve a bit since then :-> ). Corentin  Signature--- Mac:MS MVP (Francophone) --- http://www.mvps.org - http://mvp.support.microsoft.com MVPs are not MS employees - Les MVP ne travaillent pas pour MS Remove "NoSpam" to e-mail me - Retirez "NoSpam" pour m'écrire If it's any help in understanding where I'm coming from, I believe DRM to be "the spawn of Satan" <eg> It seems to cause no end of problems for users, is incompatible across platforms and unnecessarily restrictive - in most cases treating the "valued customer" as no different than a poacher. IMHO. Some day (wistfully) maybe there'll be a DRM that works but doesn't have those encumberances, but we're about as far from that now as we've ever been - though much of the blame for that lies squarely at the feet of the large content producers eg the RIAA and film studios. Cheers - Neil >My Flip4Mac assertion was more provoking than researched. I couldn't find >any mention of DRM, and found some posts talking about how MSFT would need [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] >> Interesting points. >> Cheers, Neil >My Flip4Mac assertion was more provoking than researched. I couldn't find >any mention of DRM, and found some posts talking about how MSFT would need >to actively allow Flip4Mac to use DRM. I think it's partly true. From what I understand, concerns from content providers about the capability to lock-down parts of OSX to keep their content secure is part of the equation. The other part is of course whether Apple will play ball (it's their OS after all). Perhaps the linkup with telestream will provide a way to smooth the road between the two giants ? Maybe if the Flip people bug Apple enough and MS bug Flip to hassle Apple for 'apis', everything can work together in harmony ... here's hoping. Cheers - Neil Perhaps MS is worried about the details of their DRM being leaked. Once the details of the DRM are known, it is a lot easier to crack. By keeping the details of its DRM in house, MS may help prevent the details of its DRM from landing in the hands of hackers. Rob P.S. Look at what happened when Apple gave developers a copy of the Intel based Mac OS X. It didn't take long before a copy appeared on the Internet. >Perhaps MS is worried about the details of their DRM being leaked. >Once the details of the DRM are known, it is a lot easier to crack. By >keeping the details of its DRM in house, MS may help prevent the >details of its DRM from landing in the hands of hackers. I expect that's a fair assessment. What would be your best or "ideal world" proposal to make that workable yet still keep the content providers happy to use the DRM ? There are articles on the whole sorry history of DRM of course - the EFF have plenty http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/ And there's these essays on how workable open source DRM might be in reality - Corey Doctrow's views on this scenario, and something by Donna Wentworth : http://www.boingboing.net/2005/08/24/drm_ssl.html http://www.corante.com/copyfight/archives/2005/08/24/open_drm_dry_water.php Cheers - Neil I generally agree that *at the moment* all DRM is flawed. After all, the cable to the monitor is untrusted, as is the video driver, as is the sound driver. So perhaps this is MSFT way of saying 'to heck with all DRM.' The problem is the studios need to come to terms with that, which they won't. I disagree strongly with the assertion that MSFT should be afraid to release the DRM details. In fact, it should be the opposite: if they don't release all the details about the DRM, it can't possibly be secure. If they're concerned about releasing it to a signed partner, then it's even more of a disaster. There's all this infrastructure in the WMRM toolkit for invalidating devices and players and such, so they should put it to good use. :) >>Perhaps MS is worried about the details of their DRM being leaked. >>Once the details of the DRM are known, it is a lot easier to crack. By [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Cheers - Neil > I generally agree that *at the moment* all DRM is flawed. As far as I am concerned, some DRM schemes are so flawed they are virtually illegal. Zones on DVDs ??? Why in hell should I loose the right to play the DVDs I bought in France when I moved to the US ?? Corentin (not a big DRM fan :-< ) Signature--- Mac:MS MVP (Francophone) --- http://www.mvps.org - http://mvp.support.microsoft.com MVPs are not MS employees - Les MVP ne travaillent pas pour MS Remove "NoSpam" to e-mail me - Retirez "NoSpam" pour m'écrire >> I generally agree that *at the moment* all DRM is flawed. > >As far as I am concerned, some DRM schemes are so flawed they are >virtually illegal. Zones on DVDs ??? Why in hell should I loose the >right to play the DVDs I bought in France when I moved to the US ?? Exactly my thoughts (/me buys Corentin a pint) Cheers - Neil > Exactly my thoughts (/me buys Corentin a pint) A pint of any of the Unibroue (http://www.unibroue.com/english.cfm) beers would do ;-) Corentin Signature--- Mac:MS MVP (Francophone) --- http://www.mvps.org - http://mvp.support.microsoft.com MVPs are not MS employees - Les MVP ne travaillent pas pour MS Remove "NoSpam" to e-mail me - Retirez "NoSpam" pour m'écrire > http://www.unibroue.com/english.cfm Glad to see it's not the bum wine crowd up here... http://www.bumwine.com/ SignatureTo reply by email, remove the word "space" >> http://www.unibroue.com/english.cfm > >Glad to see it's not the bum wine crowd up here... > >http://www.bumwine.com/ Ohh, we'll drink anything as long as it's free - MVP pissups^^^^^ meetups are legendary for high levels of booze consumption "hooch anyone" ? Cheers - Neil How do we get at the truth on this? I have a mac order pending. If I can't access news sites I have to stay PC when I wanted to work with both for different reasons and applications :-( All I have for sure is a recent reply from flip4mac saying they need at least a month to try to make the thousands of windows-only sites work with their software and in Quicktime. Right now, it doesn't. (they say, not me). News (TV)last night said Apple's market share in December was much lower than expected so who's going to meet mac users halfway then?! As a home/work from home user, I just don't know if I should buy a mac and would welcome advice from someone like you, Neil. I'm a real PC dummy. I like to visit a website, click a video file and it opens and plays! Btw I rang Apple (UK). I knew more than they did which is scary. They say I can always convert files. No way. > >So Microsoft has: > > *) Dropped WMP for Mac [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > Interesting points. > Cheers, Neil |
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