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Mac Forum / Applications / Virtual PC / May 2008For those who have Intel-based Macs...
... I want to treat you all with an insight to what is possible (because I have this configuration running right now as I write this) if you want to install Windows on the Mac via Boot Camp, but want to preserve your former Virtual PC installation within the new Windows environment on our Mac. This was exactly my scenario: I have Windows Vista Business that I want to run under Boot Camp on my MacBook Pro, but I have stuff I want to migrate from Windows XP running under a virtual machine on an old PowerPC-based Mac (my PowerBook G4, incidentally) running Virtual PC. And according to the EULA that comes with Virtual PC, I actually am entitled to do this legally under the new arrangement because the copy of Windows that ran under the old Virtual PC installation will continue to run in the same way under the new installation... so you can forget worrying about any legalities when you do this, except for two issues: * you promise to forfeit your Virtual PC installation on the PowerPC-based Mac, and the installation of Windows within, and * you may have to re-authenticate Windows when you migrate your installation on your new Intel-based Mac. [Important: for the above to be true, you must have a Virtual PC product with a version of Windows that you actually intend to use on the upgraded system, or you need a retail product of Windows, which comes with its own EULA and installation disks. Using a product that did not come with your licensed copy of Virtual PC or Windows retail is a voilation of the Windows and/or Virtual PC and/or Office v.Mac Professional EULA.] If Windows came with your Virtual PC:Mac or Office v.Mac Professional product, then you will have no problems running under the new environment, either technically or legally. So what is the new environment that I am so excited about? Well, I simply came to the realisation that even though I can boot Windows on my Mac via Boot Camp, I can also augment this environment with an installation of Virtual PC 2007 SP1 for Windows, of which can be obtained for free from: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/virtualpc/default.mspx to run older installations of Windows on my Intel-based Macintosh! So now I have a way to run the former virtual machine on a faster environment, in a completely compatible manner that does not involve translating virtual machines from one product to another. The slightly tricky part is copying the hard disk image(s) to the Windows Vista boot partition. This mailout shows how to prepare your disk images so that Virtual PC 2007 can boot them. Firstly, you need an Intel-based Mac with Leopard installed (or Tiger, if you have dared to keep a beta of Boot Camp running on your system!), and you need to install a host Windows installation. I have used Windows Vista Business on my setup-but you can also use Windows XP SP2, since you need to have a supported version of Windows available for Boot Camp to boot into. After you have Vista or XP installed on the Boot Camp partition, download Virtual PC 2007 and install that into your Windows environment. After you have that up and running, don't prepare a virtual machine for it just yet... you'll want to get your old virtual machine into the Windows system first. To do that, you can: * prepare the host Windows XP or Vista system to enable file sharing, so that your PowerPC-based Mac can mount its SMB file share. * copy your virtual machine <name>.vpc7 to the host Windows installation on your Intel-based Mac via SMB networking. There are other ways you could copy the virtual machine over... but I chose what I think is the quickest and cheapest solution. Then, in Virtual PC 2007, make a new virtual machine. You need to do this because Virtual PC for Mac and Virtual PC 2007 have different filing conventions for representing your virtual machine-dropping in the Mac's virtual machine for Virtual PC 2007 to pick up will not work, because Virtual PC 2007 cannot identify Virtual PC's virtual machines. When you make your  Signature-- tonza. <snip> > [Important: for the above to be true, you must have a Virtual PC product > with a version of Windows that you actually intend to use on the upgraded [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > product, then you will have no problems running under the new environment, > either technically or legally. <snip> That's probably a typo. The copy of Windows that comes with Virtual PC is ONLY for use with Virtual PC, as you stated in the paragraph before. It cannot legally be transferred by any means to any other product or system. Helpful Harry Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships ;o) ><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Virtual PC, as you stated in the paragraph before. It cannot legally be >transferred by any means to any other product or system. But he is using it with Virtual PC, Virtual PC 2007 for Windows. This might work, after all, it's not too different than having VPC5+Windows 2000, then upgrading that bundle to VPC6, then VPC7. MS allowed the user to upgrade to a different "platform" there. Here you're just upgrading from VPC7 to VPC2007. This is a good question for MS Licensing...although you'll probably get a different answer from every licensing rep you ask. SignatureCheers, Steve Jain, Virtual Machine MVP http://vpc.essjae.com/ I do not work for Microsoft. > ><snip> > >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > This is a good question for MS Licensing...although you'll probably > get a different answer from every licensing rep you ask. Oops! Sorry, I missed that bit ... but "Virtual PC for Mac" and "Virtual PC for Windows" are actually two very different products (one of them is dead for a start), so it still probably breaks the license agreement to re-use the bundled version of Windows. If you buy a Dell PC with Windows XP, and then upgrade the Dell PC to another Dell PC, you're not allowed to use the Windows license from the first one (I know it's not a great example since the new one would likely have it's own license anyway). Helpful Harry Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships ;o) Virtual PC 2007 for Intel machines does not entitle you to transfer a VPC 6 or 7 bundled copy of Windows to an Intel machine. You are always free to transfer the license to a retail copy of Windows, but not a bundled one. There is nothing on the website you linked that addresses VPC6 or 7 bundled Windows in any way. The bundled Windows license is restricted to use with the copy of VPC it comes with. The licenses for VPC for PPC Macs is not related to VPC 2007 at all. > ... I want to treat you all with an insight to what is possible (because I > have this configuration running right now as I write this) if you want to [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > When you make your I have some comments to make regarding what Colin said here, because I disagree with him entirely: > Virtual PC 2007 for Intel machines does not entitle you to transfer a VPC > 6 or 7 bundled copy of Windows to an Intel machine. You are always free [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > use with the copy of VPC it comes with. The licenses for VPC for PPC Macs > is not related to VPC 2007 at all. Given the license documentation I have received with Office:Mac 2004 Professional, both in print, and on the supplied CDs, I am licensed to use Windows XP in however manner the accompanying literature has described, so long as I have retained my original CD set and continue to have a valid and authentic print of a Windows XP Pro Product Key for it (as it appears on the CD sleeve of the original media). As long as I have the CD sleeve and the disks, I have a valid Windows XP Pro license. Since there is no OEM serial number and Terms of Use that has accompanied the media, I am licensed to use Windows XP as if I have the retail package of the product, because for all intents and purposes, the licensing described upon installation of Windows XP spells out my obligations, rights and privileges to using the software, which is no different to what is produced with the retail version of Windows XP Professional.. The Windows XP Professional document (a PDF) that appears on the CD (disk 1) says to: "5. Review the license agreement and, if you agree, accept it." (Install Windows XP, page 3, step 5). In the Read-Me file on the Virtual PC for Mac installation CD (disk 1), the only reference to licensing relates to installation: "Note: if you want to install your own licensed copy of a PC operating system but you don't have a bootable CD-ROM, you must make a disk copy or Virtual PC floppy disk image of the boot floppy disk that came with the operating system." and this is indeed nothing more than help on how to install your presumed licensed copy of your operating system. Upon installing Windows XP Professional on my virtual machine, the license states: "1. GRANT OF LICENSE 1.1. Installation and use. You may install, use, access, display and run one copy of the Software on a single computer, such as a workstation, terminal or other device ("Workstation Computer"). The Software may not be used by more than two (2) processors at any one time on any single Workstation Computer." By any stretch of the imagination, "other device" includes a virtual machine, since it is the executor of the software. Since I have merely moved the virtual machine's disk image from one physical machine to another, and remain to have the same product key as the original installation, I am licensed to use Windows XP on that same installation, despite the fact that I am using a different virtual machine hosting application (Virtual PC 2007 running on Windows) to run it. The license only binds a Windows XP Professional installation identified with one product key to one user, for a single-user retail version of the product. Henceforth, there is absolutely no reason why the license would be violated in running Windows XP Professional on another platform (in this case, an Intel-based Mac running Windows XP or Vista as a host OS under Virtual PC 2007 using the *same system image* as the one the guest Windows XP system was installed on). That's why I added that you must: -- forfeit the use of any other installation of your Windows XP Professional system, and -- have the original set of CDs and product keys from your original product purchase to have a valid license to use the software. And you can't use Virtual PC 2007 to install Windows off the CDs that came with Virtual PC for Mac-you need to install Windows on a virtual machine hosted by Virtual PC for Mac first. And I have also checked the license for Virtual PC 2007... under the same provisions for using a separately licensed Windows installation on Virtual PC for Mac, you can also use a separately licensed Windows installation on Virtual PC 2007. There is nothing in the product licensing for Virtual PC 2007 that says that you can only use the version of Windows provided with that product, because, frankly, you can obtain Virtual PC 2007 without any accompanying Windows product, and the license to Virtual PC 2007 allows for that. Hope this clarifies your understanding of Windows licensing wrt. Virtual PC for Mac in this instance. >> ... I want to treat you all with an insight to what is possible (because >> I have this configuration running right now as I write this) if you want [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] >> >> When you make your A couple more notes... just to wrap things up: On page 35 of the Virtual PC for Mac Getting Started guide, under Step 2, Create a Virtual Machine, appears this interesting set of paragraphs that say: "Configure the Windows Operating System. Whether you installed your own operating system or the Windows operating system included on the Virtual PC 7 Installation CD, you need to configure or finish configuring the Windows operating system." and: "Product Key Information for Windows. You already provided the product key for Virtual PC 7. Because the Windows operating system is a separate Microsoft product, you need to provide the product key for the Windows operating system, as well." Both this evidence, and the absence of any OEM licensing terms and additional product keys in the product package that I have purchased from Microsoft, the Windows operating system that comes with Virtual PC for Mac in Office:Mac 2004 Professional edition is not bound in any way to Virtual PC for Mac, so that means, that what I am doing with my installation of Windows XP Professional is entirely legal and has not void the license presented by the Windows XP Professional installer. I think this solidifies my statements like cooled mantle. Just because Windows in Virtual PC for Mac is not packaged to conveniently be installed in other environments, doesn't mean it is not licensed to. Disclaimer: you should always check your packaging material for any restrictive licensing terms that may have come with your software! Ensure that any and all product documentation, whether in print or in electronic form, does not deny you your privileges to use the software in the manner I have set out in this thread. But as I have demonstrated, it is possible to run your old virtual machine on newer Macintosh hardware and be licensed to do so, because no such restrictions are in place according to the product documentation. Kind regards. --tonza ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Barnhorst" <c.barnhorst@comcast.net> Newsgroups: microsoft.public.mac.virtualpc Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 8:13 AM Subject: Re: For those who have Intel-based Macs... <abridged> You are way off base here. If you provide your own copy of Windows this discussion is irrelevant as long as it is a retail copy. The copy of Windows bundled with VPC for Mac is not retail and isn't even complete. A number of files needed for installation on hardware are missing by design to prevent just this. Connectix did this at the request of MS. Use of the bundled Windows without VPC for Mac is out of compliance with its license. >A couple more notes... just to wrap things up: > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > <abridged> > You are way off base here. If you provide your own copy of Windows this > discussion is irrelevant as long as it is a retail copy. The copy of > Windows bundled with VPC for Mac is not retail and isn't even complete. A > number of files needed for installation on hardware are missing by design to > prevent just this. Connectix did this at the request of MS. Use of the > bundled Windows without VPC for Mac is out of compliance with its license. You're wasting your time. Far too many people don't even bother reading the license (or even know there is one) so think they actually own the product and can do whatever they want. Then there are some who actually do read the license, but twist the legalese to fit what THEY want, rather than what it really says, and so still do whatever they want. :o\ Helpful Harry Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships ;o) I know, but our replies are read by others besides the OP and for the most part they remember. >> You are way off base here. If you provide your own copy of Windows this >> discussion is irrelevant as long as it is a retail copy. The copy of [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Helpful Harry > Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships ;o) OK Colin, I'll do this for you: if you can find me any documentation or reference that suggests that I cannot run Windows XP Professional within Virtual PC 7 for Mac, I'll stop. I myself will be interested from where you find this information. Thanks, and kind regards, --tonza >I know, but our replies are read by others besides the OP and for the most >part they remember. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> Helpful Harry >> Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships ;o) Oh, darn! Wrote that rather incorrectly! What I mean to say is, of you can find me any documentation or reference that suggests that I cannot run Windows XP Professional prepared by Virtual PC for Mac in another version of Virtual PC, I'll stop using the product. I'll leave it to over to you, since I have exhausted all my resources at this end. Kind regards, --tonza > OK Colin, I'll do this for you: if you can find me any documentation or > reference that suggests that I cannot run Windows XP Professional within [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >>> Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships >>> ;o) From the EULA for VPC for Mac: "Installation and Use. You may install, use, access, display, and run one (1) copy of the Product on a single computer, such as a workstation, terminal, or other device ("Workstation Computer") on which you have also installed (and which is compatible with and capable of directly executing) any version of the software product distributed by Microsoft Corporation and known as Virtual PC for Mac ("VPC Mac"), solely for use as a "guest" operating system running in conjunction with VPC Mac." Notice the "running in conjunction with VPC Mac". VPC 2007 is not VPC Mac. > Oh, darn! Wrote that rather incorrectly! > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >>>> Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships >>>> ;o) So this is your EULA for what Product? The Windows operating system, or for Virtual PC itself? If it is for your Windows operating system, then my license does not have that specification (I posted mine earlier)... so my license is apparently different to yours! If this is for Virtual PC for Mac itself (I doubt it, otherwise the text below wouldn't make any sense), then I would like to know how on Earth anyone is going to be able to run the Macintosh version of Virtual PC on an Intel-based Mac! From what Virtual PC package did your EULA documentation come in? Thanks for the enlightenment, but I think we need to discuss this further. --tonza > From the EULA for VPC for Mac: > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] >>>>> Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships >>>>> ;o) > So this is your EULA for what Product? The Windows operating system, or for > Virtual PC itself? > > If it is for your Windows operating system, then my license does not have > that specification (I posted mine earlier)... so my license is apparently > different to yours! The officially Microsoft bundled version of Windows with "Virtual PC Window XP" (for example) is ONLY for use with Virtual PC, the Mac version. It's no different to the version of Windows that comes bundled with a new PC or the version of MacOS that comes bundled with new Macs. Some shops did do their own bundled packs where you got "Virtual PC (no Windows OS)" and a separate retail copy of Windows - this one you can use with any real computer or emulator / vistualisation software. It's easy to tell the difference. The "Virtual PC only" version comes in the same box, whereas the full license retail version will come in a separate box or be a CD taped / vaccuum-packed to the front of the Virtual PC box. > If this is for Virtual PC for Mac itself (I doubt it, otherwise the text > below wouldn't make any sense), then I would like to know how on Earth > anyone is going to be able to run the Macintosh version of Virtual PC on an > Intel-based Mac! It's probably possible using a PowerPC emulator like SheepShaver and an older version of Virtual PC, but would be extremely slow. Helpful Harry Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships ;o) You can't even read. I started my reply with the source. VPC7 for Mac. The section I quoted governs the license that comes bundled with the product. If you are going to do what you want anyway, then just do whatever it is. But don't expect affirmation from the old hands in this ng. We just aren't going to tell you that being out of compliance with a license is OK. We aren't going to argue the license either because our opinions don't matter any more than yours concerning licensing. You can't argue licensing in a newsgroup. All you can do is consult your local MS office for an official opinion. We don't need to discuss this further. You need to seek an official opinion from your local MS office. > So this is your EULA for what Product? The Windows operating system, or > for Virtual PC itself? [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] >>>>>> Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships >>>>>> ;o) Actually, I can read. It's just that you didn't actually issue from what license the text was quoted from and wouldn't care to elaborate. From where did the license text came from? A document that was provided along your instruction manuals in the Virtual PC for Mac product packaging? Or was it in electronic form from within the Windows XP [Professional] product installer? Which product box set do you have? Was it an upgrade? All in an effort to determine how it is that you have such documentation stating your restriction to use the software and not me!!! You provided none of these details, so your lack of useful information in response to my request does not constitute my inability to read. Well, OK, I'll consult someone from Microsoft on the matter then. Sorry I annoyed you over an issue which you are so adamant about, yet can't be bothered to assist with. -- tonza > You can't even read. I started my reply with the source. VPC7 for > Mac. The section I quoted governs the license that comes bundled with [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] >>>>>>> Helpful Harry >>>>>>> Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships ;o) http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/ In the drop downs select: "Virtual PC for Mac with Windows XP Home" "7.0" "English" Click on GO Then click on the link for "Virtual PC for MAC with Windows XP Home_7.0_English.pdf" > Actually, I can read. It's just that you didn't actually issue from what > license [quoted text clipped - 130 lines] >>>>>>>> Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork >>>>>>>> hardships ;o) Nifty First line of the PDF states "(For Use Solely in Conjunction with Microsoft Virtual PC for Mac)" Pretty much wraps up the discussion. On 5/25/08 8:11 PM, in article 7F2B25AD-5CC1-42E8-9482-0244D1DA1C1F@microsoft.com, "Colin Barnhorst" <c.barnhorst@comcast.net> wrote: > http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/ > [quoted text clipped - 141 lines] >>>>>>>>> Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork >>>>>>>>> hardships ;o) Yes. > Nifty > [quoted text clipped - 182 lines] >>>>>>>>>> Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork >>>>>>>>>> hardships ;o) Thank you for the URL -- I really appreciate it that you showed me that collection of information. That was the sort of thing I was looking for... ... but it doesn't wrap up the issue for me just yet. First, nothing on Windows XP Professional with Virtual PC for Mac 7. Second, nothing about Windows XP Professional with Virtual PC for Mac 7 that shipped with Office for Mac Professional 2004. So I am going to end the discussion here and go chase up a licensing guru at Microsoft. But thanks for your understanding. If you do have more on Virtual PC licensing, I'm all eyes and ears. --tonza > http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/ > [quoted text clipped - 125 lines] >>>>>>>>> Helpful Harry >>>>>>>>> Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships ;o) The info you want is in the EULA for VPC7 and not the software bundled with it. That is standard. For another example of places where the licensing of a product is superceded by the product it is used with, see the licenses for Windows Server 2003 and 2008 Enterprise and Data Center editions as well as Vista Enterprise. There are others. These licenses grant or restrict child licenses used with them. For example, Vista Enterprise grants licensing for products whose own licenses are more restrictive. The Windows license bundled with VPC is superceded by the license for VPC7 where the superceded product is specifically restricted by a term or terms in the VPC7 license, which in this case it is. You are trying to find a reference in the Windows license itself but MS did not change that license for legal reasons. Instead it is modified by reference in the VPC7 license. Again, this is standard practice. It is unusual to see this in Windows client software but more common in Server and other types of licenses, including a few apps like VPC. > Thank you for the URL -- I really appreciate it that you showed me that > collection [quoted text clipped - 160 lines] >>>>>>>>>> Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork >>>>>>>>>> hardships ;o) And the license that comes with Windows XP Professional that is shipped with Virtual PC 7 for Mac Professional Edition that is shipped in Office:Mac 2004 Professional says exactly what the retail version of Windows XP Professional states in its installation procedures. No more, no less. Furthermore, no other documentation comes with Virtual PC 7 for Mac Professional Edition that tells me otherwise about my Windows XP Professional license. So there is nothing more for me to abide by. Period. Like I said before, just because Windows XP Professional has been packaged in a way that is not convenient for anything other than for use with Virtual PC... doesn't mean that it isn't licensed to run elsewhere. However, granted, the installation package and procedure is adequate enough on the Windows XP Professional distribution that comes with Virtual PC for Mac so that it can also run on Virtual PC 2007 for Windows, and that's fine by me. Furthermore, the driver set that comes with Windows XP Professional is what comes in the retail package-what doesn't come with the retail package of Windows XP Professional is what comes in the VMAdditions.iso that comes with Virtual PC. VMAdditions.iso contains the software required for Windows XP Professional to run effectively under the VM's environment... not Windows XP Professional. Unless users have additional licensing restrictions in the form of a written license agreement-electronic, or in print-that came with their Virtual PC package, I see absolutely no reason why others cannot use their Windows XP Professional in Virtual PC 2007 for Windows, particularly since the software distribution that users have received is enough to provide a useful system to them. If you don't want to take my recommendations, that's fine. But don't tell people what they can't do just because your interpretations of the Windows XP Professional license is different to what is actually supplied with the Office:Mac 2004 Professional product. I've done my bit... I'll leave the rest up to you. There's no point in me debating something you're not prepared to listen to. Kind regards, -- tonza > You are way off base here. If you provide your own copy of Windows this > discussion is irrelevant as long as it is a retail copy. The copy of [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] >> >> <abridged> |
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