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Mac Forum / Programming / Mac Programming / July 2006newbie with xcode - Am *VERY* disappointed...
Hi, I'm trying to learn xcode... But I don't like it as much as visual studio, because there are a couple of things which are really not logical I think... 1) For instance: When I debug using this "memory dump view", the numbers doesn't change to red when they're modified as in Visual studio - I really like this, since it's much easier to keep track on what's changed. 2) I also have to manually indent my program code properly... That really stinks... Or is it just me who missed something? I tried to mark everything and go to "Format"-menu + "re-indent" and "balance"... Nothing worked... Still looks ugly as hell... Perhaps I need to change some options somewhere? 3) Take a look at this small program: #include <iostream> using namespace std; class test { private: int abc; public: test() : abc(911) {} int& member_test() { return abc-11; } }; int main() { cout << endl << endl; test c; cout << "HI" << " test = " << c.member_test(); return 0; } Xcode doesn't even tell me the return value of the function, when I use the debugger....! I would expect something like, when I put a breakpoint and when c.member_test() is about to return (or just after it returned), then the debugger variable window should tell me that: "c.member_test() returned 900". But it doesn't! The only way I can see what it returned is by watching what comes out on the screen... That is unacceptable... I hoped there was another GUI debugger/IDE available that can be recommended for mac os X, if these issues can't be solved... Could anyone help me with these 3 issues? There are also other things which I hate with xcode, but perhaps I can learn to like it if somebody here can learn me how to use it a bit better.... TIA. Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen  Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > [blah blah i don't like xcode why doesn't it work like windows?] boy, does this crap ever get old. you come in with a lousy attitude and expect other people to help you solve non-problems, mostly related to the fact that you're being close-minded. go back to windows, if it's so great, and leave us alone. SignatureThe buildings glistened, they dazzled, they were so high, it made me happy just to watch them being tall. -- Ann Marlowe >>[blah blah i don't like xcode why doesn't it work like windows?] > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > go back to windows, if it's so great, and leave us alone. Tsk. tsk... Why the hell did you answer in the first place, when all you can write is just childish rubbish? Do you think your mom is proud of that silly nonsense you can write? FYI: I don't care about the underlying OS and it's not windows "that is great", and when you learn to read correctly you might eventually understand that I never intended to start a flamewar between operating systems, moron.... So please stick your "go back to windows" up somewhere else - that comment was completely unprovoced and it only shows that you must be the only close-minded person in here. xcode is not perfect! So what? Grow up, little child... Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > > [blah blah i don't like xcode why doesn't it work like windows?] > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > go back to windows, if it's so great, and leave us alone. Wow, you are just SO helpful, aren't you? It is fools like you that give the Mac a bad name. Bigots that think their magic platform is the only way to do things. I have programmed the Mac since 1984, and the PC since 1995. With CodeWarrior, I could sneer at the VS and show what a piece of junk it was. With XCode, the shoe is on the other foot. It is simply not a world-class debugger. Apple went the cheap route with open source debugger, and the results show what a poor choice that was. Would have been much better to work with CodeWarrior folks and get a world-class development environment. Signature- Burt Johnson MindStorm, Inc. http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html >>>[blah blah i don't like xcode why doesn't it work like windows?] >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > give the Mac a bad name. Bigots that think their magic platform is the > only way to do things. True... And agreed 100%. > I have programmed the Mac since 1984, and the PC since 1995. With > CodeWarrior, I could sneer at the VS and show what a piece of junk it > was. With XCode, the shoe is on the other foot. It is simply not a > world-class debugger. I find this dependency on gdb *really* annoying because I feel it is (relatively) pretty slow to step forward one source code program line... It's the same problem with "ddd" which I now have installed on my mac.... That also has this annoying "delay" which happens because you know that xcode or ddd both has to communicate with gdb... > Apple went the cheap route with open source debugger, and the results > show what a poor choice that was. Would have been much better to work > with CodeWarrior folks and get a world-class development environment. I'm actually a bit surprised, because they should really invest more time (and money) in xcode, in order to make more developers switch to the mac platform... But since I'm only an xcode-newbie, that's just my impression... I know visual studio too has some stupid errors, but at least I really like it's debugging facility *A LOT*... For instance I can have a breakpoint just before a long expression like: T[i] = koefA(T[i-1]-T[i]) + koefB(T[i-1]-T[i]) - koefC(T[i+1]-T[i]).... And I just mark with the mouse cursor (so it becomes light-blue) for instance "koefB(T[i-1]-T[i])" and I get the value of the whole expression evaluated, calculated and shown *directly* after 0,5 seconds... I can then see value just right next to the mouse cursor, before even stepping into that line... If I want to know the whole expression, without even executing it I mark everything: "koefA(T[i-1]-T[i]) + koefB(T[i-1]-T[i]) - koefC(T[i+1]-T[i])" and for instance I would get 29,32223443 and I didn't even execute that line yet. The debugger just does all the hard work for me so I don't have to go into each individual variable, find the relevant index positions and figure out the result of each term myself by subtracting/multiplying/doing anything "by-hand"... I really miss that... Now: If I stop at this line in xcode: T[i] = koefA(T[i-1]-T[i]) + koefB(T[i-1]-T[i]) - koefC(T[i+1]-T[i]).... It would really be much more timeconsuming for me to figure out any errors... I mean: It takes longer to figure out the values of T[i-1], T[i], T[i+1] and to do the calculations myself... I don't know if there's something I missed, but at least I can't do this in xcode now and I bet that's because it depends on gdb... Strangely yet, because with ddd I can also hold the mouse cursor over a variable and it shows that value right next to the cursor (but it doesn't do this automatic calculation of whatever I marked in light-blue as in visual studio). Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > T[i] = koefA(T[i-1]-T[i]) + koefB(T[i-1]-T[i]) - koefC(T[i+1]-T[i]).... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I don't know if there's something I missed, but at least I can't do this > in xcode now and I bet that's because it depends on gdb... No, it's not a limitation of gdb. When you explore gdb (some tutorial material was linked to earlier in this thread) you'll see that gdb can calculate those values for you. Xcode's view of the debugging session may not do it automagically, but you can open the debugger console and enter something along the lines of: print (float) koefA(T[i-1]-T[i]) // if koefA() returns a float There is a ton of things you can do from the command line, if Xcode's interface is not helpful. As an aside, Xcode 2.3 (to be released soon?) will switch to the more compact 'dwarf' debugging symbols format, from the current 'stabs'. This should result in shorter debug session 'turnaround times'. patrick >>T[i] = koefA(T[i-1]-T[i]) + koefB(T[i-1]-T[i]) - koefC(T[i+1]-T[i]).... >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > print (float) koefA(T[i-1]-T[i]) // if koefA() returns a float Oh.... Thanks a lot! > There is a ton of things you can do from the command line, if Xcode's > interface is not helpful. Oh... I see.... Gotta learn that then... > As an aside, Xcode 2.3 (to be released soon?) will switch to the more > compact 'dwarf' debugging symbols format, from the current 'stabs'. This > should result in shorter debug session 'turnaround times'. Sounds good... Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > > print (float) koefA(T[i-1]-T[i]) // if koefA() returns a float > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Oh... I see.... Gotta learn that then... If you really want, you can just open a new terminal window, and start the debugging session from the command line, completely bypassing Xcode. I found the chapter on debugging in this book: <http://www.bignerdranch.com/products/core.shtml> very helpful, and I can recommend the whole book. I have the original book, but the second edition should be even better. There also exist at least two books on Xcode alone, which might prove a worthwhile investment. patrick > I know visual studio too has some stupid errors, but at least I really > like it's debugging facility *A LOT*... > > For instance I can have a breakpoint just before a long expression like: > > T[i] = koefA(T[i-1]-T[i]) + koefB(T[i-1]-T[i]) - koefC(T[i+1]-T[i]).... Yes, but on the other hand, VS will happily compile the most incorrect code and not complain a bit. Everything works fine on Windows, and then someone tries to compile the code on gcc or some other compiler. Then you find out that gcc or the other compiler is correct, and VS shouldn't have compiled it at all. I can't count the number of times I've been bitten by this. So both sides have their issues. Wade > I can't count the number of times I've been bitten by this. > > So both sides have their issues. Which version of VS did you actually use? The newest version (2005) has come quite a way (at least according to MS people themselves) in corformance. I'm sure it's easy to say that some of the old versions were quite broken. We cannot disagree on that but I am sure gcc was not much better either if you go some years back. -- Henrik > I'm trying to learn xcode... > > 1) For instance: When I debug using this "memory dump view", the numbers > doesn't change to red when they're modified > > 2) I also have to manually indent my program code properly... Have you turned on syntax-aware indenting in Xcode's preferences (under Indentation)? > 3) Xcode doesn't even tell me the return value of the function, when I use > the debugger....! I would expect something like, when I put a breakpoint > and when c.member_test() is about to return (or just after it returned), > then the debugger variable window should tell me that: "c.member_test() > returned 900". But it doesn't! Your other two requests are, in my opinion, excellent ideas, but they are not, as far as I know, implemented in current version of Xcode. You should go to bugreporter.apple.com and file them with Apple, because that's the only way anybody will ever implement them. hth, Ben SignatureIf this message helped you, consider buying an item from my wish list: <http://artins.org/ben/wishlist> I changed my name: <http://periodic-kingdom.org/People/NameChange.php> >>I'm trying to learn xcode... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Have you turned on syntax-aware indenting in Xcode's preferences (under > Indentation)? Oh, thanks a lot.... >>3) Xcode doesn't even tell me the return value of the function, when I use >>the debugger....! I would expect something like, when I put a breakpoint [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > bugreporter.apple.com and file them with Apple, because that's the only way > anybody will ever implement them. I did that now - classified my request as "Enhancement"... I hope they'll implement it... I also added a new request which isn't as important but in Visual studio 2005, when I debug and stop in the middle of the program, then I can just point the mouse cursor over a variable and after about 0,5 seconds that value is shown right next to the mouse cursor... That however is not so important, but I like that you don't have to move your eyes to a separate window or even move the mouse cursor if there isn't room for more variables in the "variables window"... The problem is that sometimes you have too much variables to be shown at once in the "variables window" and then it's really nice to have this "automatic showing of variables values during debugging". I there any other debugger that is recommendable under mac os X (must use GUI)? Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > > Have you turned on syntax-aware indenting in Xcode's preferences (under > > Indentation)? > > Oh, thanks a lot.... does that mean "yes", "no", or "it didn't solve my problem"? >>>Have you turned on syntax-aware indenting in Xcode's preferences (under >>>Indentation)? >> >>Oh, thanks a lot.... > > does that mean "yes", "no", or "it didn't solve my problem"? It didn't solve the problem, but you showed me where I could find the error (it was also in preferences/indentation - something was set to 0 indentation instead of 4)... Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > I there any other debugger that is recommendable under mac os X (must > use GUI)? all the hardcore guys out there keep telling me to use the command-line "gdb" debugger You are, that is what XCode is using, bring up a console window and you can type commands directly to it. See here (http://cet.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us/~jhudson/etec372/05/gdbguide.pdf) for the essential commands. Also if you don't like how XCode presents stuff you can run DDD on OS X and have an entirely new view of your code. DDD is very good at showing data structures but not as good as XCode when you have to debug threads or just general tracing. --jim > You are, that is what XCode is using, bring up a console window and you > can type commands directly to it. See here [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > code. DDD is very good at showing data structures but not as good as > XCode when you have to debug threads or just general tracing. Ok, thanks. I'll try it. Then I'll have 2 debuggers to choose between. Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > > Also if you don't like how XCode presents stuff you can run DDD on OS X > > and have an entirely new view of your code. DDD is very good at showing > > data structures but not as good as XCode when you have to debug threads > > or just general tracing. > > Ok, thanks. I'll try it. Then I'll have 2 debuggers to choose between. It's just one debugger: GDB, but DDD gives you another way to look at its output (I never even heard of it until 2 posts ago. Learn something every day on this list!). Xcode is quite a complicated program, and not very newbie-friendly. Once you get aquainted it's not that bad, really. Note that even though Xcode is quite an old program, it is not very mature (a common problem!). Each new version brings noticable improvements, but there is still plenty to complain about (just now I'm having some problems trying to delete breakpoints...). Xcode's deficiencies are one of the major factors slowing Microsoft and Adobe down at the moment in their transition to universal binaries. Xcode is the only show in town at the moment, so you better go see it... patrick -- Tip of the week: get nicer replies by not using CAPITALS in your subject line... > > I there any other debugger that is recommendable under mac os X (must > > use GUI)? > > all the hardcore guys out there keep telling me to use the command-line "gdb" debugger The OP could try DDD, it runs GDB but presents a very GUI. I'm not sure if it's supported under Mac OS/X though. Signaturehttp://www.munted.org.uk Take a nap, it saves lives. >>I there any other debugger that is recommendable under mac os X (must >>use GUI)? > > all the hardcore guys out there keep telling me to use the command-line "gdb" debugger Ok, I also tried it but only a bit... Perhaps I should try it some more then (I got 2 tutorials which I downloaded, but didn't really look at yet)... Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Nothing worked... Still looks ugly as hell... Perhaps I need to change > some options somewhere? Unfortunately, i complete agree. XCode is a piece of junk. I doubt I will take another Mac contract after the one I am on, as I hate to use it. I feel like I have gone back in time 10 years or more. I used to say that about the PC, but now with only XCode to use, the PC is light years ahead. Also, hover your cursor over a variable. VS tells you the value, but XCode just stares back. No support for 'active local variables'. Only the full set. Usually what I want is inside 'self' so I have to open that, seeing a very long list with only maybe 5 or 10 relevant to the code block I am in. VS is very smart about that (while letting you see all variables if you prefer). Lots of other limitations too. I am basically debugging with printf again (NSLog in this case, but same beast). I haven't had to do that in well over a decade. :-( Signature- Burt Johnson MindStorm, Inc. http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html -snip- > Also, hover your cursor over a variable. VS tells you the value, but > XCode just stares back. I really can't live without that! :-) I'm completely addicted to that mouse cursor "hovering", LOL :-) I just got my reply from apple developers "bug-dude": - - - Thank you for filing these requests/issues. We request that you restrict your submissions to one issue per bug report. This allows us to efficiently distribute the necessary information to Apple Engineering. At this time, we kindly ask that you please resubmit each of these as individual bug reports using the Bug Reporter. <http://bugreporter.apple.com> Again, thank you for your bug submissions. We appreciate your help in discovering and isolating bugs. - - - So they closed my case and apparantly it looks/looked like they don't want to do anything... Even though it feels like they don't care about it, I finally took myself together and filled in 3 individual requests... > No support for 'active local variables'. Only the full set. Usually > what I want is inside 'self' so I have to open that, seeing a very long > list with only maybe 5 or 10 relevant to the code block I am in. VS is > very smart about that (while letting you see all variables if you > prefer). Exactly... > Lots of other limitations too. I am basically debugging with printf > again (NSLog in this case, but same beast). I haven't had to do that in > well over a decade. :-( It really stinks.... :-( I really hope they'll improve xcode and untill then I won't make any big programs on xcode because I feel it's too difficult to track errors down without this "mouse hovering thing"... I mean: 1) Change program code and insert printf(""), 2) recompile, 3) run the program from the beginning, 4) Figure out that the printf("") should be in another place, 5) remove it and move it to somewhere else, 6) repeat all of this again and again and again.... Oh my god! That is just too slow! Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk In comp.sys.mac.programmer.help Martin J?rgensen <unoder.spam@spam.jay.net> wrote: >> Lots of other limitations too. I am basically debugging with printf >> again (NSLog in this case, but same beast). I haven't had to do that in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > That is just too slow! Far be it from me to claim that Xcode is perfect. I hate it in many different ways. But people, including myself, do manage to create and debug large products with it. You should consider that, even though it may lack certain features, and even though it may be a crash-prone crudbasket (although getting much better these days), these things are livable. And the fact that it's the only choice if you want to make Mac software should be a good incentive to deal with it. Rather than throwing up your hands after what appears to be mere *days* of experimenting, it may be worth your while to consider that perhaps these features aren't as essential as you believe, and that Xcode offers its own unique advantages. Personally, I ignore Xcode's GUI debugger except for showing me what line I'm on, the *occasional* glance at local variables, and conveniences like being able to click to step to the next line. I do 90% of my debugging activities from the gdb command line. Not only does this free you from much Xcode bugginess, give you Special Powers(tm), and feel right at home for somebody used to a UNIX command-line (and if you don't feel right at home there, you really *should* if you want to do work on the Mac), but learning gdb makes you a much more powerful programmer on most any UNIX-oid system. It's a skill that easily transfers to remote debugging of a command-line tool on some FreeBSD system in another country, or to debugging massively parallel applications running on a Linux cluster. I don't really know what to say in response to the "debugging with printf" commentary. I only do that when I have weird thread bugs or when I need to trace the flow of execution through many different functions without actually halting execution every time I hit one. (And you can do these using breakpoint commands, but I find those less convenient than logs.) This, in particular, seems to speak more of unfamiliarity than lack of quality in the software. In conclusion, I agree with pretty much all sides of this thread simultaneously. Xcode sucks and could use much improvement, but at the same time, stop whining, suck it up, and learn the tool. SignatureMichael Ash Rogue Amoeba Software > In comp.sys.mac.programmer.help Martin J?rgensen <unoder.spam@spam.jay.net> wrote: -snip- > debug large products with it. You should consider that, even though it may > lack certain features, and even though it may be a crash-prone crudbasket > (although getting much better these days), these things are livable. And > the fact that it's the only choice if you want to make Mac software should > be a good incentive to deal with it. Ok, but I'm not a good programmer yet so all I can program on a mac is simple standard C/C++ unix (command-line) programs without GUI. > Rather than throwing up your hands after what appears to be mere *days* of > experimenting, it may be worth your while to consider that perhaps these > features aren't as essential as you believe, and that Xcode offers its own > unique advantages. Ok. > Personally, I ignore Xcode's GUI debugger except for showing me what line > I'm on, the *occasional* glance at local variables, and conveniences like > being able to click to step to the next line. I do 90% of my debugging > activities from the gdb command line. Not only does this free you from Sounds interesting... But isn't that slow? > much Xcode bugginess, give you Special Powers(tm), and feel right at home > for somebody used to a UNIX command-line (and if you don't feel right at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a command-line tool on some FreeBSD system in another country, or to > debugging massively parallel applications running on a Linux cluster. I see what you mean... I should *definately* try to learn to use gdb command-line commands then... > I don't really know what to say in response to the "debugging with printf" > commentary. I only do that when I have weird thread bugs or when I need to > trace the flow of execution through many different functions without > actually halting execution every time I hit one. (And you can do these > using breakpoint commands, but I find those less convenient than logs.) How do you use logs? > This, in particular, seems to speak more of unfamiliarity than lack of > quality in the software. > > In conclusion, I agree with pretty much all sides of this thread > simultaneously. Xcode sucks and could use much improvement, but at the > same time, stop whining, suck it up, and learn the tool. Ok, thanks a lot for telling how to get the "good things" out of it... Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk In comp.sys.mac.programmer.help Martin J?rgensen <unoder.spam@spam.jay.net> wrote: >> In comp.sys.mac.programmer.help Martin J?rgensen <unoder.spam@spam.jay.net> wrote: > -snip- [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Ok, but I'm not a good programmer yet so all I can program on a mac is > simple standard C/C++ unix (command-line) programs without GUI. Even so, it's the only game in town. I assume that you will one day want to create larger projects (since you talked about larger projects), so it will be helpful to learn the tools at hand. Learning gdb will also mean that you can debug these simple C/C++ CLI programs on any UNIX-like system, not just OS X. >> Personally, I ignore Xcode's GUI debugger except for showing me what line >> I'm on, the *occasional* glance at local variables, and conveniences like >> being able to click to step to the next line. I do 90% of my debugging >> activities from the gdb command line. Not only does this free you from > > Sounds interesting... But isn't that slow? Much like a UNIX shell, it's slower than a GUI for simple operations, but vastly more powerful and therefore faster for complex operations. For example, if I want to see the contents of the local variable "x", I can't just point to it as in VS, but have to type "p x", which is marginally slower. However, let's say that I have a void * pointing to an array of 24 floats. In Xcode's GUI this will be difficult to see. I don't know how you'd do it in VS but I imagine it's not directly simple either. In gdb, I just do: (gdb) x/24fw voidPtr Maybe I have a breakpoint in a function where I don't have the source code (because it's a system library, for example), but I still want to see the value of the first argument passed in. I can just do: (gdb) p $r3 Let's say I have an array of 100 ints and I want to print the result of calling a function on each one of them, but I have no actual code to do the loop. I'd be shocked if any GUI could handle this, but in gdb it's just: (gdb) set $i = 0 (gdb) while $i < 100 >p func(array[$i]) >set $i = $i + 1 >end Etc. etc. >> much Xcode bugginess, give you Special Powers(tm), and feel right at home >> for somebody used to a UNIX command-line (and if you don't feel right at [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I see what you mean... I should *definately* try to learn to use gdb > command-line commands then... I should warn you that it's difficult, but IMO very much worth learning. >> I don't really know what to say in response to the "debugging with printf" >> commentary. I only do that when I have weird thread bugs or when I need to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > How do you use logs? I use them most frequently when developing methods that respond to events in GUI applications where switching to another app (as happens when you hit a breakpoint) will break the code. For example, debugging a mouse tracking loop. Or sometimes it will be a long sequence of methods and I suspect that one of them is getting called twice, or not at all. There, I can just put in a bunch of: NSLog(@"%s", __func__) (You can use fprintf or cerr in the same way, of course.) And if I want, I can print parameters etc. at the same time. You could of course also do this in gdb: (gdb) break SomeFunction (gdb) commands >echo "Reached SomeFunction" >print anArgument >cont >end But for large numbers of functions, inserting temporary debugging code is easier. SignatureMichael Ash Rogue Amoeba Software > In comp.sys.mac.programmer.help Martin J?rgensen <unoder.spam@spam.jay.net> wrote: -snip- > Even so, it's the only game in town. I assume that you will one day want > to create larger projects (since you talked about larger projects), so it > will be helpful to learn the tools at hand. Yep. I'm doing my bachelor project in VS - it's a "larger project", but still not a GUI program. I does a lot of calculations and saves results to files which I import in another program... > Learning gdb will also mean that you can debug these simple C/C++ CLI > programs on any UNIX-like system, not just OS X. Agreed, nice. >>>Personally, I ignore Xcode's GUI debugger except for showing me what line >>>I'm on, the *occasional* glance at local variables, and conveniences like [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > (gdb) x/24fw voidPtr hehe... Depends... In VS I think I can also just point to it with the mouse cursor, but what it does depends... Sometimes: Hovering the mouse over a pointer variable: It'll first give me the address to which it is pointing to. Then there's a small "+" below it and when I move the mouse on top of the "+" it expands and shows me the first pointed-to-value. I think that applies to all pointers to "simple" types such as: int, double, float, char... Really nice and fast :-) If it knows an array defined as "int *array_pointer[100]", I think it'll still expand and moreover it'll expand with about the 10 first lines/values, i.e.: *array_pointer[0], *array_pointer[1], *array_pointer[2], *array_pointer[3]...... and in the bottom there's a small arrow that goes down. When you move the mouse on top of that small arrow, you can actually scroll down through all 100 values - AFAIR... You can also just directly copy/paste the address of the pointer to the "memory view" if you want to visualize large arrays - And here I really like that the values get red after being modified, when you're stepping through the program. But since you wrote it's a void-pointer then I'm not sure if it'll do all of this... It'll probably only show the address, which I then just copy/paste to the "memory view" and then I can see all the addresses and choose if it should convert the data to float/64-bit double/4-byte int/8-byte int... (I can't remember all the options)... If the pointers are int** (pointers-to-pointers), then there's two "+"'es that I can expand with my mouse, just by holding the mouse cursor on top of the pointer variable... So you see... It's *really* nice and ultra-fast to check something... I would like that in xcode and actually thought it was "industry standard" for a modern debugger (GUI)...... > Maybe I have a breakpoint in a function where I don't have the source code > (because it's a system library, for example), but I still want to see the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Etc. etc. Nice... >>>much Xcode bugginess, give you Special Powers(tm), and feel right at home >>>for somebody used to a UNIX command-line (and if you don't feel right at [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I should warn you that it's difficult, but IMO very much worth learning. At least I think I should learn the basics... >>>I don't really know what to say in response to the "debugging with printf" >>>commentary. I only do that when I have weird thread bugs or when I need to [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > (gdb) break SomeFunction > (gdb) commands Ok. >>echo "Reached SomeFunction" >>print anArgument [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > But for large numbers of functions, inserting temporary debugging code is > easier. Yep, ok. Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > Far be it from me to claim that Xcode is perfect. I hate it in many > different ways. But people, including myself, do manage to create and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the fact that it's the only choice if you want to make Mac software should > be a good incentive to deal with it. I wrote some major code in assembly with nothing but a single step hardward controller in the 70's too. Doesn't mean I would want to do it today, or that I would consider it world-class. And actually you have this on its head. The fact that XCode is the only way to write Mac software is a good incentive NOT to write Mac software. I may love the platform, but I am not willing to walk over hot coals barefoot to do so. The Mac market is tiny, with very few real opportunities. The PC market is huge and easy to find contracts. In the 90's, I did Mac almost exclusively because the environment was so much better than the PC that it was pleasurable. Ain't that way anymore though. :-( > In conclusion, I agree with pretty much all sides of this thread > simultaneously. Xcode sucks and could use much improvement, but at the > same time, stop whining, suck it up, and learn the tool. Nope. I won't "suck it up" just because it is Apple. Instead, I will work on the Dark Side, where they actually have world class development tools. I have one Mac contract that I am fighting through now. I seriously doubt I will accept any future Mac contracts now that I see just how bad the Apple tools are. The same was true last time Apple tried development tools. MPW was a sad joke. If that had been the only environment available, I would have dropped Mac and gone to PC. Instead there was Symantec ThinkC, and later CodeWarrior. They made programming on the Mac far more advanced than on the PC. Unless Apple gets a world class IDE, they have no hope of enticing enough programmers to want to develop for the Mac. Signature- Burt Johnson MindStorm, Inc. http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html In comp.sys.mac.programmer.help Burt Johnson <burt@mindstorm-inc.com> wrote: >> Far be it from me to claim that Xcode is perfect. I hate it in many >> different ways. But people, including myself, do manage to create and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > hardward controller in the 70's too. Doesn't mean I would want to do it > today, or that I would consider it world-class. Comparing Xcode with embedded assembly is slightly facetious. > And actually you have this on its head. The fact that XCode is the only > way to write Mac software is a good incentive NOT to write Mac software. > I may love the platform, but I am not willing to walk over hot coals > barefoot to do so. And that is your choice to make. > The Mac market is tiny, with very few real opportunities. The PC market > is huge and easy to find contracts. In the 90's, I did Mac almost > exclusively because the environment was so much better than the PC that > it was pleasurable. Ain't that way anymore though. :-( I personally have had no trouble in it. It's a smaller market, but there's way less competition too. In any case, I feel that Xcode is "good enough", and any problems it has is more than made up for the wonderful libraries and system I have to work with. A Windows IDE would have to make coffee and write my code for me before I would consider doing Win32, MFC, or .Net. But then again, I'm pretty comfortable using nothing but emacs, gdb, and make to write UNIX programs, so I probably have a somewhat different perspective. [snip] > Unless Apple gets a world class IDE, they have no hope of enticing > enough programmers to want to develop for the Mac. What exactly is "enough"? Is there some cusp they're aiming for which requires a critical mass of Mac developers? The Mac software market seems pretty healthy from where I stand. More is always better, but acting like Apple is doomed unless they can convince you to work on their platform seems to be severely overstating things. SignatureMichael Ash Rogue Amoeba Software > ... > The same was true last time Apple tried development tools. MPW was a sad > joke. Did you ever use it? Don't confuse "it's a CLI!" with "it's no good". It remains the most powerful "classic" PPC/68K development environment (unless you are hooked on IDEs). > If that had been the only environment available, I would have > dropped Mac and gone to PC. Instead there was Symantec ThinkC, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Unless Apple gets a world class IDE, they have no hope of enticing > enough programmers to want to develop for the Mac. Eclipse is an excellent option for Mac (Linux and Windows too). Xcode isn't the only game in town. --T > -- > - Burt Johnson > MindStorm, Inc. > http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html > > ... > > The same was true last time Apple tried development tools. MPW was a sad [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It remains the most powerful "classic" PPC/68K development environment > (unless you are hooked on IDEs). Yeah, I was forced to use it in two projects where I worked as a contractor for Apple in the early 90's. Nobody outside Apple ever used it as far as I can tell. (OK, probably an exageration, but every single one of my other contracts used ThinkC till early 90's, then CodeWarrior after that). > > If that had been the only environment available, I would have > > dropped Mac and gone to PC. Instead there was Symantec ThinkC, and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Eclipse is an excellent option for Mac (Linux and Windows too). Xcode > isn't the only game in town. I briefly used Eclipse for Java (on a PC) before that particular project got cancelled. Can it be used to generate universal binaries on a Mac? Signature- Burt Johnson MindStorm, Inc. http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html > > > ... > > > The same was true last time Apple tried development tools. MPW was a sad [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > contractor for Apple in the early 90's. Nobody outside Apple ever used > it as far as I can tell. (OK, probably an exageration, but every single Outrageous exaggeration :) Some of us used it and loved it. In fact, I still do: CodeWarrior can't do what my MPW makefiles do. And MPW's compilers produce somewhat smaller, faster code. I guess people don't realise it can build Carbon executables... > one of my other contracts used ThinkC till early 90's, then CodeWarrior > after that). [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I briefly used Eclipse for Java (on a PC) before that particular project > got cancelled. Can it be used to generate universal binaries on a Mac? I don't see a technical reason why not, although I haven't done GUI development with it myself (others out there surely have - the topic comes up in newsgroups perennially). Eclipse can deal with arbitrary makefiles, so anything is possible. I use it on OS X to build Win32 EXEs and DLLs, C/C++/Perl applications, UNIX CLI tools, shell scripts, Microchip assembler, everything really. The only thing I *don't* use it for is Java, which is funny considering a lot of people (mistakenly) see it as a 'Java IDE'. > -- > - Burt Johnson > MindStorm, Inc. > http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html >> I briefly used Eclipse for Java (on a PC) before that particular project >> got cancelled. Can it be used to generate universal binaries on a Mac? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > for is Java, which is funny considering a lot of people (mistakenly) > see it as a 'Java IDE'. I used Eclipse on Java and for C++ programming on Palm. Eclipse Palm/C++ used makefiles and gdb and generally sucked, but for Java Eclipse is (in my opinion) second to none. I actually prefer it to Visual Studio (it is difficult to compare, one for Java, other for C++). On MAC in 90-s used Think C then Codewarrior. Looked on MPW but impression wasn't very good. >> -- >> - Burt Johnson >> MindStorm, Inc. >> http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html > > > > ... > > > > The same was true last time Apple tried development tools. MPW was a sad [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > still do: CodeWarrior can't do what my MPW makefiles do. And MPW's > compilers produce somewhat smaller, faster code. I remember more than a few people who used CW or THINK/Symantec tools during development and then did the release build with MPW. In addition to the better codegen you cite, there was a sense that having a second compiler take a shot at the code was a worthwhile sanity check. I don't agree with Burt's assessment of MPW, but I understand it. A command-line-based development system was probably fairly daunting for anyone who was new to programming after 1987 or so (not saying Burt was in that category, but...) and for a lot of its life it was fairly expensive. Those were two fairly significant barriers to discovering how powerful MPW was and maybe for a lot of people the relative strengths over the more approachable alternatives simply wasn't seen as necessary. G Signature"Congurutulation!!!" - The subject line on some spam I received recently. I have no idea what it means, but it's such a cool "word" (by which I mean pronouncable sequence of letters) regardless. > > > > > ... > > > > > The same was true last time Apple tried development tools. MPW was a sad [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > to the better codegen you cite, there was a sense that having a second > compiler take a shot at the code was a worthwhile sanity check. It definitely is. Every new compiler you throw at a code base helps iron out kinks. > I don't agree with Burt's assessment of MPW, but I understand it. A > command-line-based development system was probably fairly daunting for > anyone who was new to programming after 1987 or so (not saying Burt was > in that category, but...) It was probably also confronting to a lot of the Mac user base - who Apple had baited with a slick GUI. So there was no "comfortable" entry level to programming for power users. Nice to see that many easy paths "upwards" are offered by Apple today in free Xcode and many other tools. (It's ironic to see MS now pushing "formerly obsolete and evil" CLI shells on to its GUIfied user base...) > and for a lot of its life it was fairly > expensive. That was indeed unfortunate. > Those were two fairly significant barriers to discovering how > powerful MPW was and maybe for a lot of people the relative strengths > over the more approachable alternatives simply wasn't seen as necessary. At the time, it was the closest I could get to a "real" environment like UNIX (couldn't afford UNIX hardware in the 1980s, and was located too remotely to be able to use somebody else's). How things have changed! Long before System 7 (which promised it) I dreamed of a multitasking, protected memory O/S for my Mac... > G > > -- > "Congurutulation!!!" - The subject line on some spam I received recently. > I have no idea what it means, but it's such a cool "word" (by which I mean > pronouncable sequence of letters) regardless. > > I don't agree with Burt's assessment of MPW, but I understand it. A > > command-line-based development system was probably fairly daunting for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Apple had baited with a slick GUI. So there was no "comfortable" entry > level to programming for power users. I think Hypercard filled that spot quite well for a couple of years. Also, MPW Shell was, IMO, much better than existing shells from a UI perspective. For instance: - I haven't seen anything that even approaches commando yet - the special characters, variable escaping, and quoting rules clearly were designed by someone who was aware of the good and bad sides of how Unix shells do this - MPW shell featured a very good, easy to grasp alternative for the Unix command line history - the merging of the editor with the command shell meant that one only needed to learn one scripting language for both I think the major shortcoming of MPW shell was that it did not run on an OS that could do it justice (example: pipes always used temporary files, and did not run in parallel; background tasks were, IIRC, nonexistent) Reinder > > > I don't agree with Burt's assessment of MPW, but I understand it. A > > > command-line-based development system was probably fairly daunting for [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > - I haven't seen anything that even approaches commando yet I forgot to mention that... > - the special characters, variable escaping, and quoting rules clearly > were designed by someone who was aware of the good and bad sides of how > Unix shells do this > - MPW shell featured a very good, easy to grasp alternative for the Unix > command line history Yes - execute/evaluate in place was a nice Smalltalk-ism. Mathematica also goes this way with its innovative Notebook format. > - the merging of the editor with the command shell meant that one only > needed to learn one scripting language for both > > I think the major shortcoming of MPW shell was that it did not run on an > OS that could do it justice (example: pipes always used temporary files, > and did not run in parallel; background tasks were, IIRC, nonexistent) Right, which is why I constantly pined for a UNIX underneath ;-) > Reinder >> - I haven't seen anything that even approaches commando yet > I forgot to mention that... I like the way you ended with three periods... SignatureDave Seaman U.S. Court of Appeals to review three issues concerning case of Mumia Abu-Jamal. <http://www.mumia2000.org/> > I remember more than a few people who used CW or THINK/Symantec tools > during development and then did the release build with MPW. In addition > to the better codegen you cite, there was a sense that having a second > compiler take a shot at the code was a worthwhile sanity check. Yes, a valid correction. I do remember having all automated builds being done using MPW. This is now in dark recesses of my memory, so I may be slightly off here. However, my memory of the situation was that MPW had a better compiler, but that debugging in MPW was a dark ages approach. The reason developers like myself liked Think C (and later CodeWarrior) was for the debugger and the editor. The same thing may very well be true with XCode. It may (or may not -- I really don't know) have a better compiler. It is the debugging experience that I find to be extremely crude and disappointing. When I was forced to move from CodeWarrior to Visual Studio, I was surprised how much better CW was, and the significant shortfalls of VS. When I moved to XCode, I expected a "Mac experience" of a better environment again. Instead, I now long for VS features. In my mind (for debugging and editing): CW > VS > XCode Signature- Burt Johnson MindStorm, Inc. http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html -snip- > Eclipse is an excellent option for Mac (Linux and Windows too). Xcode > isn't the only game in town. Thanks for telling... I've heard good things about it from someone who uses it to do java-projects, so I downloaded it from versiontracker... It even seems like Apple agrees: http://developer.apple.com/tools/eclipse.html http://developer.apple.com/tools/usingeclipse.html But it works as well for developing C and C++-programs as for java? I just downloaded CDT 3.0.2 using the update manager and downloaded a helloworld example project, but I wouldn't compile... Each time I clicked on the green arrow a new window "Create, manage and run configurations" pop up and then I choose "C/C++ Local application" and later under "Perspectives" I choose: "Debug: Debug", "run: c++". Hmm... I'll have a closer look tomorrow. Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > I really hope they'll improve xcode and untill then I won't make any big > programs on xcode because I feel it's too difficult to track errors down > without this "mouse hovering thing"... Another massive loss is the ability to simply more the cursor to a different line and say "continue from here" (NOT 'continue TO here'). With VS, I will sometimes do that to rerun a loop that I want to look at more closely, or to skip over a block that I know has trouble. I was quite surprised to find that not available in XCode. Signature- Burt Johnson MindStorm, Inc. http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html > > I really hope they'll improve xcode and untill then I won't make any big > > programs on xcode because I feel it's too difficult to track errors down [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I was quite surprised to find that not available in XCode. I do that all the time - you need need to be careful to grab the pointer that indicates the current line and not click just off of that and end up setting a breakpoint. > -snip- > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > So they closed my case and apparantly it looks/looked like they don't > want to do anything... I don't see any indication of that in the response. What type of response are you accustomed to from MS? > Even though it feels like they don't care about it, I finally took > myself together and filled in 3 individual requests... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > programs on xcode because I feel it's too difficult to track errors down > without this "mouse hovering thing"... http://www.charlespetzold.com/etc/DoesVisualStudioRotTheMind.html > I mean: 1) Change program code and insert printf(""), 2) recompile, 3) > run the program from the beginning, 4) Figure out that the printf("") > should be in another place, 5) remove it and move it to somewhere else, > 6) repeat all of this again and again and again.... Oh my god! > > That is just too slow! If your distaste for Xcode cannot be overcome, there is always Eclipse, http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/ (which as it happens I prefer to Xcode). If you also find Eclipse unsatisfactory then I suggest you resign yourself to Windoze-world. --T PS. If you are confused by the tone of the replies you are getting, check the tone of how you entered the group (and the abrasive subject line). It is a human trait to respond in the manner greeted. > Best regards / Med venlig hilsen > Martin Jørgensen > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk >>- - - >>Thank you for filing these requests/issues. We request that you restrict [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I don't see any indication of that in the response. "At this time, we kindly ask that you please resubmit each of these as individual bug reports using the Bug Reporter." > What type of response are you accustomed to from MS? Not just from MS, but *everywhere* else people never tells me that they basically don't care about my case and therefore closes it down without doing anything at all. In case you didn't understood it: They asked me to submit everything again as 3 indiviual cases, where all other companies I know of wouldn't ask me to do their job... How they internally handle the case is usually not my problem - at least it isn't everywhere else. You should remember that I don't get paid by helping them with telling how to improve their software - and if they don't want people to help them, they could just as well write that directly somewhere so people don't have to waste their time. At least it seems like I wasted my time. Sorry, Apple - it wont probably happen again, I promise. I have lots of other things to spend my time on... >>Even though it feels like they don't care about it, I finally took >>myself together and filled in 3 individual requests... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > http://www.charlespetzold.com/etc/DoesVisualStudioRotTheMind.html Of course, I would like to learn other debuggers but I don't want to waste my time if something is way too slow... When this article says that: "Not only does Visual Studio try to complete code we’re typing, but for many years now, Visual Studio has wanted to generate code for us. If we select a new project type of Windows Application, for example, and give it a name and location on a local drive, Visual Studio generates sufficient code so that this project is immediately compilable and runable." That article is crap... I don't know about you, but VS never generates any code for me "by itself". I insist on starting an empty project the whole time and if people don't want to start an empty project, then it's their own mistake if they think they "lose any control"... So this article is just ridiculous crap, IMO... I'm not a VS expert, but I suspect that people can also do "pure coding" in VS as they probably can with any other IDE. Then the conclusions completely fall apart... I'm not saying that VS doesn't have any errors or small annoying elements, but nothing like xcode... Until now I encountered at least 2-3 strange errors which I googled for an found that other people too had such unexplainable errors - and nobody knew what to do mostly... Like my last problem was it suddenly couldn't debug anymore... Can't remember the error message but several people on google explained they tried the same and nobody had any solutions... That stinks! >>I mean: 1) Change program code and insert printf(""), 2) recompile, 3) >>run the program from the beginning, 4) Figure out that the printf("") [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > check the tone of how you entered the group (and the abrasive subject > line). It is a human trait to respond in the manner greeted. I really don't see your problem. "abrasive subject line" ?!?!?! ROTFLOL! Go seek a doctor, if you find that subject line any "abrasive" - there's absolutely nothing "abrasive" about it - it's not a crime to be disappointed about xcode or anything if you think that. And it's definately not "abrasive". How I just hate people that thinks that Apple is a "perfect" company that makes "perfect", "error-free" software and who takes any criticism of Apple personally like you do. I still believe what I write: Go seek a doctor if you really meant what you wrote. Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > >>- - - > >>Thank you for filing these requests/issues. We request that you restrict [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > "At this time, we kindly ask that you please resubmit each of these as > individual bug reports using the Bug Reporter." Which does not lead me to think "they don't want to do anything". It makes perfect sense for separate issues to be logged separately. > > What type of response are you accustomed to from MS? > > Not just from MS, but *everywhere* else people never tells me that they > basically don't care about my case and therefore closes it down without > doing anything at all. They didn't do that. They just asked that you log your issues in a more helpful way. > In case you didn't understood it: They asked me to submit everything > again as 3 indiviual cases, where all other companies I know of wouldn't > ask me to do their job... Yes, I understood it. > How they internally handle the case is usually not my problem - at least > it isn't everywhere else. You should remember that I don't get paid by [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > I suspect that people can also do "pure coding" in VS as they probably > can with any other IDE. Then the conclusions completely fall apart... They can. The point of the article lies elsewhere. > I'm not saying that VS doesn't have any errors or small annoying > elements, but nothing like xcode... Until now I encountered at least 2-3 > strange errors which I googled for an found that other people too had > such unexplainable errors - and nobody knew what to do mostly... Petzold is not talking about "errors or small annoying elements"; he's talking about an entire philosophy that is unhelpful and even destructive to programmer habits. And the same can be said of the MS approach to system administration. It has bred a couple of generations of people who can no longer work without GUI gingerbread. > Like my last problem was it suddenly couldn't debug anymore... Can't > remember the error message but several people on google explained they [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > absolutely nothing "abrasive" about it - it's not a crime to be > disappointed about xcode or anything if you think that. The substance of your annoyance has been shown rather weak. > And it's definately not "abrasive". How I just hate people that thinks > that Apple is a "perfect" company that makes "perfect", "error-free" > software I'm not one of those people. --T > and who takes any criticism of Apple personally like you do. I > still believe what I write: Go seek a doctor if you really meant what [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > > ... > > PS. If you are confused by the tone of the replies you are getting, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > absolutely nothing "abrasive" about it - it's not a crime to be > disappointed about xcode or anything if you think that. I'd call your tone throughout the thread "abrasive". It seems to be your style. Do you think I would get a warm reception if I posted "newbie with VS - am *VERY* disappointed..." in microsoft.public.vstudio.general? > And it's definately not "abrasive". How I just hate people that thinks > that Apple is a "perfect" company that makes "perfect", "error-free" > software and who takes any criticism of Apple personally like you do. I don't see any sign that I took criticism of Apple personally. I was merely explaining that your tone isn't conducive to a "hugs and flowers" reception. But it's your choice. > I > still believe what I write: Go seek a doctor if you really meant what [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk >>>... >>>PS. If you are confused by the tone of the replies you are getting, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Do you think I would get a warm reception if I posted "newbie with VS - > am *VERY* disappointed..." in microsoft.public.vstudio.general? If you don't then it's not your problem. It's perfectly legal for a topic line. If you don't like that topic line and if you really cannot live with it, I suggest you don't spend more time on usenet because it'll probably not be the last time you see a topic line, which you don't like. >>And it's definately not "abrasive". How I just hate people that thinks >>that Apple is a "perfect" company that makes "perfect", "error-free" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > merely explaining that your tone isn't conducive to a "hugs and > flowers" reception. But it's your choice. I really don't understand that. It's perfectly legal in this world to write whatever I want to write - if you don't like that, I suggest you don't read usenet posts. Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk Martin J?rgensen <unoder.spam@spam.jay.net> wrote: >>>And it's definately not "abrasive". How I just hate people that thinks >>>that Apple is a "perfect" company that makes "perfect", "error-free" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > write whatever I want to write - if you don't like that, I suggest you > don't read usenet posts. Of course it's legal, and you can post pretty much whatever you want in any tone you please. However, you should consider whether your posts will help you achieve your goals. What your goals are is something we cannot know, but it is a very reasonable assumption that, since you are posting in a group called "help", your goal is to get help. Being obnoxious and abrasive, as you have been through a majority of this thread, is not a good way to get help. If your goal is not to get help but just to complain, that is your right, but then you should expect people to react badly to naked complaining in a group called "help". SignatureMichael Ash Rogue Amoeba Software > Martin J?rgensen <unoder.spam@spam.jay.net> wrote: -snip- >>I really don't understand that. It's perfectly legal in this world to >>write whatever I want to write - if you don't like that, I suggest you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > any tone you please. However, you should consider whether your posts will > help you achieve your goals. What your goals are is something we cannot I achieved everything I wanted. When I "waste" time on you, it's simply just because I enjoy that ridiculous off-topic criticism you keep on posting. > know, but it is a very reasonable assumption that, since you are posting > in a group called "help", your goal is to get help. Being obnoxious and > abrasive, as you have been through a majority of this thread, is not a > good way to get help. If your goal is not to get help but just to It wasn't "abrasive" - you're probably just not intelligent enough for understanding that, because no matter what I write you keep on posting something I find completely ridiculous. > complain, that is your right, but then you should expect people to react > badly to naked complaining in a group called "help". "Complain that is your right", but then you should expect people to react badly to naked complaining in a group called "help". Let me guess: You don't call all this nonsense you're posting for "complaining" about me.... If I understand you correctly, then you think I'm complaining, but you don't see yourself complaining about anything. I usually enjoy discussing off-topic garbage coming from fools who thinks they're better than anyone else on usenet... You definately fall into this category. Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > I achieved everything I wanted. When I "waste" time on you, it's simply > just because I enjoy that ridiculous off-topic criticism you keep on > posting. This is pretty much the classic definition of being a troll. > I usually enjoy discussing off-topic garbage coming from fools who > thinks they're better than anyone else on usenet... You definately fall > into this category. Yup, definitely 100% green blooded troll (well, I'm just guessing about the green blood) >>I achieved everything I wanted. When I "waste" time on you, it's simply >>just because I enjoy that ridiculous off-topic criticism you keep on >>posting. > > This is pretty much the classic definition of being a troll. Nobody here is perfect. You think I'm not wasting my time now and didn't waste my time yesterday too? I can tell you that I don't expect to get anything more useful out of this than I already got and therefore I'm spending my time. That's actually the definition of "wasting time", that you don't get anything useful out of it. What's left is just to discuss with some moron who can't accept that other people on usenet have opinions that are against yours. That keeps me entertained... >>I usually enjoy discussing off-topic garbage coming from fools who >>thinks they're better than anyone else on usenet... You definately fall >>into this category. > > Yup, definitely 100% green blooded troll (well, I'm just guessing about > the green blood) This also applies to you: I usually enjoy discussing off-topic garbage coming from fools who >>thinks they're better than anyone else on usenet... You definately fall >>into this category. I don't know what your purpose is with writing stupid things, but I can say without unrepenting that I now purely do it for being entertained and nothing else. And I surely *get entertained*... Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > >>So they closed my case and apparantly it looks/looked like they don't > >>want to do anything... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "At this time, we kindly ask that you please resubmit each of these as > individual bug reports using the Bug Reporter." I'm not sure why that bothers you. I find that a perfectly reasonable request. I always tell our QA department the same thing -- keep one bug per report. Otherwise it becomes impossible to tell when the problem has been taken care of. I would strongly suggest you do as they asked, and see how things go after that. And in general, I would suggest you take that advice to heart for any reports of problems to any developer. Signature- Burt Johnson MindStorm, Inc. http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html > "At this time, we kindly ask that you please resubmit each of these as > individual bug reports using the Bug Reporter." [] > Not just from MS, but *everywhere* else people never tells me that they > basically don't care about my case and therefore closes it down without [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > again as 3 indiviual cases, where all other companies I know of wouldn't > ask me to do their job... Log in to bugreporter, choose 'New Problem', and _read_ the first line of the form: "Please include only one report per submission" (OK, this could have read 'Please report one bug at a time', file that as an enhancement request!) Your general attitude seems to be 'shoot first, ask questions later'. While this would appear to be the prevalent strategy in contemporary international politics, it won't get you very far in computer programming... patrick > In case you didn't understood it: They asked me to submit everything > again as 3 indiviual cases, where all other companies I know of > wouldn't ask me to do their job... Actually, their job is to solve your poblem, not spend their time correcting your bug submissions. No offense, but you're getting your panties in a wad over something that doesn't matter. Big companies have process. If you want the most effective service, follow their process as closely as you can. You splitting up your bug report takes 30 minutes. Apple deciding to change the policies around bug report submission takes months. You may think that Microsoft will happily do all your work for you and provide answers in mere seconds, but that's simply because you're more familiar with them and their processes. Try going against their process and see how far you get. Wade >> In case you didn't understood it: They asked me to submit everything >> again as 3 indiviual cases, where all other companies I know of >> wouldn't ask me to do their job... > > Actually, their job is to solve your poblem, not spend their time > correcting your bug submissions. Actually my job is *not* to solve Apple's problems. I don't get paid for wasting my time on suggesting how they can improve their software. But they do. That's the difference. > No offense, but you're getting your panties in a wad over something that > doesn't matter. No offense, but I don't care if Apple makes lousy debuggers or development tools. I just don't program on Apple machines then - it's as easy as that. > Big companies have process. If you want the most effective service, > follow their process as closely as you can. You splitting up your bug > report takes 30 minutes. Apple deciding to change the policies around > bug report submission takes months. They shouldn't do it as a "service" for me. They should improve it for their own sake. FYI: I can *EASILY* live without xcode. What makes you think I need xcode for anything? I DON'T... Okay? > You may think that Microsoft will happily do all your work for you and > provide answers in mere seconds, but that's simply because you're more > familiar with them and their processes. Try going against their process > and see how far you get. I didn't write that anywhere, so that's rubbish to write. What I do is that I plan on going for the best software that best suits my needs. I'm not either Apple's or Microsoft's beta tester in any way and neither company pays me anything for doing anything free for them. Therefore I usually don't do anything for free for them, unless I'm in a very merciful mood. And they should thank me for that, if I spend my precious time on either of them. Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > They shouldn't do it as a "service" for me. They should improve it for > their own sake. FYI: I can *EASILY* live without xcode. What makes you > think I need xcode for anything? I DON'T... Okay? Sounds like you have your answer then. If you don't need it, don't complain about it. Wade > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > doesn't change to red when they're modified as in Visual studio - I > really like this, since it's much easier to keep track on what's changed. It does for me. > 2) I also have to manually indent my program code properly... That > really stinks... Or is it just me who missed something? It's you. Automatic indenting prefs are available and fairly flexible. G Signature"Congurutulation!!!" - The subject line on some spam I received recently. I have no idea what it means, but it's such a cool "word" (by which I mean pronouncable sequence of letters) regardless. >>Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It does for me. No, it doesn't. You're looking at the wrong place. I bet you're looking in the debugger view (shift+apple+Y) and *not* in the "memory browser". The problem with the debugger view is that you can't visualize anything but really small data arrays at the same time. If you have a for-loop, the memory browser is better. And the colors don't change here! I can't imagine that should work on another way on your computer. >>2) I also have to manually indent my program code properly... That >>really stinks... Or is it just me who missed something? > > It's you. Automatic indenting prefs are available and fairly flexible. FYI: The problem is already solved because someone else helped me by telling where to look. Otherwise I would say you're pretty arrogant, telling me that I have a problem without telling me how to solve it when you obviously know it. Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Martin Jørgensen Signature--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk > >>2) I also have to manually indent my program code properly... That > >>really stinks... Or is it just me who missed something? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Otherwise I would say you're pretty arrogant, telling me that I have a > problem without telling me how to solve it when you |
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