Mac Notebooks : great . . . but keyboards stink

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pdlemper@earthlink.net - 29 Dec 2009 19:29 GMT

Three of my sons are Mac enthusiasts. One gave me a Notebook for
Christmas. Macs are of the finest construction and have
state-of-the-art electronics. The OS 10.6 is much better than Windows ;
so much better that one of my sons, a computer programmer, uses it
as his operating system of choice.

To relax I hack in Python. Did this for hours over the Holidays on two
of my son's Macs. This is intensive keyboard work as I repeatedly
correct and modify the source code.
With a Mac keyboard this is a chore : not fun at all. There are no Home
or End keys. Worse there is no forward Delete key. This I use as much or
more than the Backspace. I found you can do this with a combination of
two or three keys. In the Python command line attempts at forward
delete produces a tilde. In an Apple store found a Mac Python user who
told me that it takes _three_ keys here.
I uses these keys a lot : there is enough to remember in addition to
multiple key combinations. Should we go back to the Wordstar Ctrl-K-B,
etc ? The Mac keyboard is like a terminal of 35 years ago : something
out of the stone age. May be alright for loading tunes or pics, but
exhausting for keyboard intensive work, even with a programmers editor.

I tried hard to like my son's Macs. Tentatively decided to go with the
basic Notebook. The deal breaker was when I discovered the mouse
button on my sons Notebook has been discarded. Now one presses harder on
the touchpad ( Apple calls it the trackpad ). Over years I've learned
that these capacitive touch pads work best with light pressure. It seems
counter-intuitive to press hard. It was quite awkward to use in the
Apple Store. The salesman seemed to shrug it off saying there's a
leaning curve. Why should there be ? Someone discourteous could say
" the designer of this might be an a__hole ".

The Mac keyboard is minimalist. Apple may be following Mies van der
Rohe's famous dictum " less is more ". But one could look at this
conversely : more key combinations are not less.

Sorry if I've offended anyone. But there's an elephant in the room
no-ones talking about. Its a shame for such great computers.

Dave WB3DWE

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nospam - 29 Dec 2009 20:16 GMT

> With a Mac keyboard this is a chore : not fun at all. There are no Home
> or End keys. Worse there is no forward Delete key.

of course there are. i use them every day.

> This I use as much or
> more than the Backspace. I found you can do this with a combination of
> two or three keys. In the Python command line attempts at forward
> delete produces a tilde. In an Apple store found a Mac Python user who
> told me that it takes _three_ keys here.

fn+delete produces a forward delete. if python is interpreting it as a
tilde, you are either doing something wrong or it is misconfigured, nor
is there a reason why it would take three keys, trollboy.

> I uses these keys a lot : there is enough to remember in addition to
> multiple key combinations. Should we go back to the Wordstar Ctrl-K-B,
> etc ? The Mac keyboard is like a terminal of 35 years ago : something
> out of the stone age. May be alright for loading tunes or pics, but
> exhausting for keyboard intensive work, even with a programmers editor.

it's a compromise for a portable keyboard. where will all those extra
keys go? do you want a full size keyboard on a small laptop? keys that
are not commonly used require a modifier. if you really need a keyboard
with a bazillion keys, get an external keyboard and plug it in.

> I tried hard to like my son's Macs. Tentatively decided to go with the
> basic Notebook. The deal breaker was when I discovered the mouse
> button on my sons Notebook has been discarded. Now one presses harder on
> the touchpad ( Apple calls it the trackpad ).

it's actually the same pressure, in the same area where the button used
to be, and it feels roughly the same.

> Over years I've learned
> that these capacitive touch pads work best with light pressure. It seems
> counter-intuitive to press hard. It was quite awkward to use in the
> Apple Store. The salesman seemed to shrug it off saying there's a
> leaning curve. Why should there be ? Someone discourteous could say
> " the designer of this might be an a__hole ".

there is no learning curve and it's not awkward at all. you click it
like any other trackpad.

there's also a number of multi-finger gestures that don't exist on
other trackpads. those might require a short learning curve, but
they're fairly intuitive (e.g., pinch to zoom or twist to rotate).

> The Mac keyboard is minimalist. Apple may be following Mies van der
> Rohe's famous dictum " less is more ". But one could look at this
> conversely : more key combinations are not less.

here's a netbook keyboard and it looks like the home/end keys need a
modifier there too (and talk about cramped):
<http://www.geekzone.co.nz/images/reviews/netbookpro/100_1583.JPG>

and larger laptop keyboard that also requires a modifier:
<http://www.tips4pc.com/images/laptop_keyboard.JPG>

it ain't just apple that does it, trollboy.

> Sorry if I've offended anyone. But there's an elephant in the room
> no-ones talking about. Its a shame for such great computers.

you've only showed that you aren't as smart as you seem to think you
are, and this post is basically nothing more than a very feeble attempt
at a troll.

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pdlemper@earthlink.net - 29 Dec 2009 23:49 GMT

>> With a Mac keyboard this is a chore : not fun at all. There are no Home
>> or End keys. Worse there is no forward Delete key.
>
>of course there are. i use them every day.

I've examined at least three Mac Notebooks plus the keyboard of a
desktop. There is a key labled "delete" . It is a destructive
backspace, not a forward delete. The left & right arrow keys are also
labled home & end. A combination of keys is required to obtain desired
effect. Its worse in the Python comand line.

>> This I use as much or
>> more than the Backspace. I found you can do this with a combination of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>tilde, you are either doing something wrong or it is misconfigured, nor
>is there a reason why it would take three keys, trollboy.

A brand new Notebook on display in the Apple Store in Boulder,
CO, yielded wierd results in the Python command line. The regular
salesperson had no explanation. They found someone experienced in
Python and he explained it requires a combination of three keys to
produce a forward delete. All Macs I've tried, old and new, yielded
wierd results in the Python command line. I've just returned home and
asked my son to open his approximately one year old Notebook. In
the Python command line :
left arrow alone yields ^[[D
fn - left arrow does nothing
ctrl - lef arrow yields ^[[5D
Apple - left arrow does nothing
I doubt all these Macs are "misconfigured".

>> I uses these keys a lot : there is enough to remember in addition to
>> multiple key combinations. Should we go back to the Wordstar Ctrl-K-B,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>are not commonly used require a modifier. if you really need a keyboard
>with a bazillion keys, get an external keyboard and plug it in.

Size is not the explanation. My old IBM Thinkpad has a width of 12.375
inches. It has a full keyboard. The Macbook with a 13.3 inch screen is
13 inches wide. I've seen many laptops with 13 - 14 inch screens with a
full keyboard. Rediculous is that the 15 and 17 inch MacBooks use the
same limited chiclet keyboard of the 13 inch one. There is just empty
space on each side.

>> I tried hard to like my son's Macs. Tentatively decided to go with the
>> basic Notebook. The deal breaker was when I discovered the mouse
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>it's actually the same pressure, in the same area where the button used
>to be, and it feels roughly the same.

According to the Apple website today, pressure anywhere on the touchpad
clicks the button. Its also said that combination movements can be
done. I admit I don't understand this.

>> Over years I've learned
>> that these capacitive touch pads work best with light pressure. It seems
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>are, and this post is basically nothing more than a very feeble attempt
>at a troll.

I'm not trying to be smart, just stimulate an intelligent discussion of
why the Apple keyboard got left behind the rest of these excellent
computers. Apparently so far I have failed. Dave WB3DWE

Reply to this Message

Tom Harrington - 30 Dec 2009 00:01 GMT

> I've just returned home and
> asked my son to open his approximately one year old Notebook. In
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Apple - left arrow does nothing
> I doubt all these Macs are "misconfigured".

Then maybe it's you. The first two above work exactly as I'd expect on
my Mac. I'm not sure what the others are supposed to do, but if you're
thinking of getting to the beginning of the line then try ctrl-A, with
ctrl-E to get to the end. Standard emacs-style keybindings, common
throughout the Unix and Unix-ish world.

Signature

Tom "Tom" Harrington
Independent Mac OS X developer since 2002
http://www.atomicbird.com/

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nospam - 30 Dec 2009 00:46 GMT

> >> With a Mac keyboard this is a chore : not fun at all. There are no Home
> >> or End keys. Worse there is no forward Delete key.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> desktop. There is a key labled "delete" . It is a destructive
> backspace, not a forward delete.

as i mentioned before, fn+delete is forward delete. i use it *all* the
time, as well as fn+left arrow (home) and fn+right arrow (end).

however, it would have been nice if the fn key was on the other side so
that it was a one handed operation but i've gotten used to that. it
would be even nicer if they hadn't replaced the enter key with a second
option key, which is *really* a pain in the a.s.

> The left & right arrow keys are also
> labled home & end. A combination of keys is required to obtain desired
> effect. Its worse in the Python comand line.

holding down a modifier key is very minor, especially considering
there's not much room for all those extra keys.

> A brand new Notebook on display in the Apple Store in Boulder,
> CO, yielded wierd results in the Python command line. The regular
> salesperson had no explanation.

what about the non-regular salespeople, or was there only one
salesperson in the entire store?

> They found someone experienced in
> Python and he explained it requires a combination of three keys to
> produce a forward delete.

bullshit. fn+delete sends a forward delete character.

> I doubt all these Macs are "misconfigured".

the forward delete character can be configured in terminal to send
anything you want. did you do that? how about terminfo? didn't think
so.

> >it's actually the same pressure, in the same area where the button used
> >to be, and it feels roughly the same.
>
> According to the Apple website today, pressure anywhere on the touchpad
> clicks the button. Its also said that combination movements can be
> done. I admit I don't understand this.

the pivot is at the top. pressing the trackpad at the bottom (where the
button would be if it was separate) requires roughly the same pressure
as it always has. pressing the trackpad at the top will require more
pressure since it's closer to the pivot point. it's basic physics.
there is a larger moment arm further away from the pivot point. not
even apple can violate the laws of physics.

the combination movements are gestures. you can pinch to zoom, like on
the iphone, or two or three finger swipe to do other actions. it's all
displayed in the trackpad system preference with very clear animations.

> >you've only showed that you aren't as smart as you seem to think you
> >are, and this post is basically nothing more than a very feeble attempt
> >at a troll.
>
> I'm not trying to be smart,

good.

> just stimulate an intelligent discussion of
> why the Apple keyboard got left behind the rest of these excellent
> computers. Apparently so far I have failed.

using python, of all things, as a metric of how to judge a keyboard is
ludicrous.

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David Empson - 30 Dec 2009 01:29 GMT

> > >> With a Mac keyboard this is a chore : not fun at all. There are no Home
> > >> or End keys. Worse there is no forward Delete key.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> would be even nicer if they hadn't replaced the enter key with a second
> option key, which is *really* a pain in the a.s.

I bought the last model which still had the Enter key, so I haven't had
to deal with that problem yet, but there is a solution for those like us
who want Enter instead of right-Option:

http://pqrs.org/macosx/keyremap4macbook/index.html

From a quick glance it appears to support a wide range of other key
remapping features as well.

Signature

David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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Jolly Roger - 29 Dec 2009 23:39 GMT

[trollage deleted]

Oh lookie - it's "Rob Cypher" again, under a new nym!

And my newsreader correctly colored his post an ugly-a.s puke green!

Love it! : D

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Steve Hix - 30 Dec 2009 02:00 GMT

> With a Mac keyboard this is a chore : not fun at all. There are no Home
> or End keys.

fn-Left-arrow and fn-Right-arrow.

> Worse there is no forward Delete key. This I use as much or
> more than the Backspace. I found you can do this with a combination of
> two or three keys.

fn-Delete

You can get and use Doublecommand to remap the keyboard to work the way
you prefer.

http://doublecommand.sourceforge.net/

Problem solved.

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lachim666 - 14 Jan 2010 11:22 GMT

Thanks for tips how to remap keys on mac, I am going to test DoubleCommand
and KeyRemap4MacBook. Does anyone know which one is better?

On KeyRemap4MacBook site is:
!!! note: Don't use this with "DoubleCommand" or other key remapper.
Uninstall these programs before installing KeyRemap4MacBook.!!!!

Anyway I use following shortcuts:
CTRL + a -- home
CTRL + e -- end
CTRL + h -- backspace
Does anyone else use other CTRL+? shortcuts ?? I did not find any other.

.. this is not big issue for users of bash, emacs, etc.
.. advantage of it is that it works in all applications
note: eg. FND+right/left arrow does not work in texedit for me

Quite useful is combination "Alt/Option + backspace" -- it deletes whole
words

My opinion is that instead of eject button we could have delete button and
instead of 3 other keys we could have insert, end, home. I have international
keyboard and there are many useless buttons like "</>" or "`-/¨", we have too
long right shift key and on the other hand too small enter. I totally
disagree that there is no space to put all wanted keys on macbooks .. the
point is that Apple is not able to accept customers calls.

Cheers!
Emma

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lachim666 - 14 Jan 2010 11:22 GMT

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Mac Forum / General / Portable Macs / January 2010

Mac Notebooks : great . . . but keyboards stink