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Mac Forum / General / Portable Macs / October 2007



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[OS 10.4.10] Unstable, crashes & hangs, data loss -> erase & reinstall !!!

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cab - 16 Oct 2007 22:36 GMT
Hi,

Disappointing series of problems...
PowerBook G4/667, 1GB RAM, 100GB HDD 7200rpm (Hitachi, 1 year old)

Since a few weeks, I have had more and more problems with applications
and with the Finder. Application hanging or refusing to quit, Finder
crashes, getting worse and worse. I think it started under OS 10.4.10
but it may have really started under 10.4.9 .

A few days ago I got messages of boot volume problems. Disk First Aid
would correct the few permission errors (iTunes, nothing worrying), this
did not solve the problems. When I tried to do a diagnostic of the boot
volume, Disk First Aid would start, then abort with the error message
"The underlying task quit".

When I booted from an external drive (firewire, backup from the boot
volume with OS 10.4.8) I was able to run Disk First Aid which reported
the error "Invalid key length" and refused to fix the volume.

A couple days later, Eudora has a problem and erased the whole Inbox...

So I decided to erase the boot volume and restore it from the OS 10.4.8
backup. This worked, then I started to update it with OS 10.4.10 Combo
update. This failed and left a slightly unstable system. I then updated
it with OS 10.4.9 PPC update, then OS 10.4.10 PPC update. Finally I did
the most recent security patch (007).

Since then the system has been operating more or less nicely, with a few
 hangs.

Question : what may have caused the first OS 10.4.10 system to become
corrupt ? Is there some reported weakness for PowerBooks ?
If so, is there a fix ?

CAB
David Empson - 17 Oct 2007 00:46 GMT
> Disappointing series of problems...
> PowerBook G4/667, 1GB RAM, 100GB HDD 7200rpm (Hitachi, 1 year old)
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> volume with OS 10.4.8) I was able to run Disk First Aid which reported
> the error "Invalid key length" and refused to fix the volume.

You had some major file system corruption, which Disk First Aid couldn't
fix. At this point, I'd have turned to DiskWarrior, or if I didn't have
it, I'd have done a complete drive erase and restore from a known good
backup, or a system reinstall and data transfer from a potentially
damaged backup.

> A couple days later, Eudora has a problem and erased the whole Inbox...

Your file system was damaged, and subsequent use of the hard drive made
it worse, probably causing data loss in the process.

> So I decided to erase the boot volume and restore it from the OS 10.4.8
> backup. This worked, then I started to update it with OS 10.4.10 Combo
> update. This failed and left a slightly unstable system.

Don't know what happened there. How did the 10.4.10 combo update fail?
This might suggest something is damaged in the 10.4.8 system you
restored from backup.

> I then updated it with OS 10.4.9 PPC update, then OS 10.4.10 PPC update.
> Finally I did the most recent security patch (007).
>
> Since then the system has been operating more or less nicely, with a few
> hangs.

You might have a problem such as corrupted preference files or a damaged
application or system file (not updated by 10.4.9 or 10.4.10) which were
preserved by your backup.

Can you clarify what you mean by "hangs"? Are specific applications
unexpectedly qutting or locking up, or is the entire user interface
locking up (spinning beachball which prevents you using any
application), or are you getting kernel panics?

If it is only problems with a certain application, it may just be a
corrupted preference file or document being accessed by that
application.

Have you had a look in the Console application at the Console Log and
System Log to see whether there is anything strange being reported there
around the time of the hang?

A useful technique in some cases is to create a new user on the computer
and see whether the problems also affect that user. If not, the problem
is likely to be due to user-specific files such as preferences for your
old user, or with specific documents you are trying to access.

> Question : what may have caused the first OS 10.4.10 system to become
> corrupt ?

Something caused the hard drive file system to get damaged. It wasn't
fixed and might have been getting progressively worse.

Do you have Journalling enabled? If so, this isn't supposed to happen -
the file system data structures are supposed to be able to survive even
a sudden loss of power, but file contents might be damaged.

If you don't have Journalling enabled, then any kernel panic, power loss
or hardware reset might result in file system corrpution due to the data
on the drive being in an inconsistent state.

You can check whether Journalling is enabled by using Disk Utility.
Click on the icon for the volume and observe whether it says "Mac OS
Extended (Journalled)" for the file system. You can enable journalling
without having to erase the drive again.

File system corruption could also be due to a damaged file somewhere in
your installed operating system, or a bug in Mac OS X, or use of a
third-party disk repair utility which isn't compatible with 10.4.

You could have a problem such as faulty RAM. This usually results in a
kernel panic. RAM problems are often temperature dependent, and the
system startup test doesn't think there is a problem, but the computer
crashes suddenly when it reaches a certain temperature and has tries to
access some critical data which was stored in the unreliable part of the
RAM.

> Is there some reported weakness for PowerBooks ?

Not that I know of.

Laptops in general are at greater risk of developing hardware faults due
to the fact that they are being moved around frequently and possibly
being flexed. This puts the internal components and circuit boards under
greater stresses than in a desktop machine.

My PowerBook G4/667 stopped working a few months ago, after almost five
years of excellent service. It had an intermittent fault at first, which
got steadily worse. My testing suggests the problem is a fault on the
logic board, and I suspect it is a broken track, dry solder joint or
similar, which has worked loose over time.

It won't even start up now, but while the problem was intermittent I was
able to get it to start up by doing a fair amount of fiddling, including
resetting the PMU.

> If so, is there a fix ?

Further troubleshooting may be required before you can narrow down the
problem. We need more information about the specific problems.

Assuming it isn't a hardware fault, it may turn out that to get
everything working reliably again you might need to do a complete
reinstall of your system and applications.

Signature

David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

cab - 17 Oct 2007 05:56 GMT
>> Disappointing series of problems...
>> PowerBook G4/667, 1GB RAM, 100GB HDD 7200rpm (Hitachi, 1 year old)
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> This might suggest something is damaged in the 10.4.8 system you
> restored from backup.

The 10.4.10 Combo update was executed up to the end where it quit,
saying that the update failed. Not further details.

>> I then updated it with OS 10.4.9 PPC update, then OS 10.4.10 PPC update.
>> Finally I did the most recent security patch (007).
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> locking up (spinning beachball which prevents you using any
> application), or are you getting kernel panics?

I've had full freeze and "spinning ball" freeze.

> If it is only problems with a certain application, it may just be a
> corrupted preference file or document being accessed by that
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> is likely to be due to user-specific files such as preferences for your
> old user, or with specific documents you are trying to access.

Ok, to be tested. Also I remember using some preference-checking
utility. I may do this as well.

>> Question : what may have caused the first OS 10.4.10 system to become
>> corrupt ?
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> access some critical data which was stored in the unreliable part of the
> RAM.

I saw this a couple of years ago when upgrading my RAM. The two modules
had different timing specs. So I has to swap them so that the Mac would
consider both as "slower" type.

>> Is there some reported weakness for PowerBooks ?
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> everything working reliably again you might need to do a complete
> reinstall of your system and applications.

Ok, need more testing. For the moment it works quite well, no crash or
problem since a couple days...
Thanks for your good advices !
David Empson - 17 Oct 2007 09:20 GMT
> >> So I decided to erase the boot volume and restore it from the OS 10.4.8
> >> backup. This worked, then I started to update it with OS 10.4.10 Combo
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The 10.4.10 Combo update was executed up to the end where it quit,
> saying that the update failed. Not further details.

I've never seen that and don't know how to approach this problem. Anyone
else?

The installer has a log which might reveal some details, but it may not
be available any more.

> >> I then updated it with OS 10.4.9 PPC update, then OS 10.4.10 PPC update.
> >> Finally I did the most recent security patch (007).
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> I've had full freeze and "spinning ball" freeze.

By "full freeze" do you mean that the mouse cursor stopped responding to
mouse or trackpad movement (pointer was frozen on the screen)?

That is usually a sign of a very low level problem, in the same ballpark
as a kernel panic, and probably due to a hardware fault, bad RAM or
corrupted system software or other kernel extensions.

I think that the PBG4/667 models use ADB to talk to the keyboard and
trackpad, and they are controlled by the Power Management Unit. This is
unlikely to stop communicating, except due to the main CPU getting stuck
somewhere in the kernel.

With later models, the trackpad is a USB peripheral, and this could be a
symptom of something causing USB to shut down or lose sight of the
trackpad. If the menu bar clock keeps counting but the mouse cursor
doesn't move, this is a more likely explantion. If the menu bar clock
has stopped, the kernel has got stuck.

In the case of a "spinning ball", you need to distinguish between one
application and the entire user interface having locked up.

In the case of an application lockup, the spinning ball will appear
whenever the mouse cursor is pointing to the menu bar or any window of
the frozen application. You should be able to click on the desktop, Dock
or another application window and other applications should still work.

If you are certain the application is stuck for good, you can try Force
Quitting it, which can be done from the Apple menu or with the
Command-Option-Escape key combination, or by clicking and holding the
mouse down on the stuck application's Dock icon then choosing Force Quit
from the contextual menu.

If the spinning wheel affects the entire user interface then this is a
similiar problem to the "frozen mouse cursor", but possibly at a
slightly higher level part of the system.

Either class of complete freeze can't easily be recovered without a
manual restart. (In the second case it may be possible to establish a
network connection to the computer from another one using ssh, and use
shell commands to force a logout of the current user, but this requires
a fair degree of knowledge, plus having Remote Login enabled before the
freeze.)

Signature

David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

cab - 18 Oct 2007 06:25 GMT
>>>> So I decided to erase the boot volume and restore it from the OS 10.4.8
>>>> backup. This worked, then I started to update it with OS 10.4.10 Combo
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> The installer has a log which might reveal some details, but it may not
> be available any more.

Indeed, not much to be found there.

>>>> I then updated it with OS 10.4.9 PPC update, then OS 10.4.10 PPC update.
>>>> Finally I did the most recent security patch (007).
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> By "full freeze" do you mean that the mouse cursor stopped responding to
> mouse or trackpad movement (pointer was frozen on the screen)?

This does happen part of the time.

> That is usually a sign of a very low level problem, in the same ballpark
> as a kernel panic, and probably due to a hardware fault, bad RAM or
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> In the case of a "spinning ball", you need to distinguish between one
> application and the entire user interface having locked up.

In most cases I get the spinning ball or simply the normal cursor which
does respond to mouse movements; all else is frozen, including clock and
dock. In some cases however only one application is frozen and I can
still switch to other apps and use them. But quitting the frozen app (by
normal or Force Quit) will usually lead to other application hangs or
even full system freeze (with spinning ball).

> In the case of an application lockup, the spinning ball will appear
> whenever the mouse cursor is pointing to the menu bar or any window of
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> a fair degree of knowledge, plus having Remote Login enabled before the
> freeze.)

Thanks for your detailed advices !!!
I am still having some problems but definitely not as bad as before
reinstalling the boot volume.
I also opened the 'Book and moved the RAM banks, maybe this will change
things...
And I verified the Preference files (with Preferential Treatment.app),
none were reported as corrupted.
cab - 21 Oct 2007 07:37 GMT
>>>>> So I decided to erase the boot volume and restore it from the OS
>>>>> 10.4.8
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
> And I verified the Preference files (with Preferential Treatment.app),
> none were reported as corrupted.

It seems that I have found the culprit : one of the two RAM modules.
Using only one 512MB module is ok, either in the lower or upper RAM
slots. I have worked heavily for more than 1 hour without any little
problem.
Using the other RAM module results in crashes after a few minutes at
most, both in the lower or upper slots.
So I just need to buy a new RAM module...
Elden Fenison - 18 Oct 2007 06:01 GMT
* David Empson [10/16/2007 23:46 UTC]:
> Assuming it isn't a hardware fault, it may turn out that to get
> everything working reliably again you might need to do a complete
> reinstall of your system and applications.

And a clean install is a pretty decent way to determine if it's a
hardware issue. You do a clean install and still have the problem then
it's most likely hardware.

When servicing Windows PCs we would always start with that because hey,
with Windows, problems are always more likely to be OS-related. :)

Signature

-=Elden=-
http://www.moondog.org

Bob Harris - 17 Oct 2007 00:49 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> CAB

Do a memory test.  It is the most likely problem.  especially if
you have recently added new memory, although existing memory can
fail.

                                           Bob Harris
cab - 17 Oct 2007 05:57 GMT
>> Hi,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
>                                             Bob Harris

Ok, to be done. I upgraded nearly 2 years ago and had problems early on.
I had to swap the 2 modules because they have different timing specs. No
more problems since.
 
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