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Mac Forum / General / General / July 2009



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Roughly how many Mac users worldwide?

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Mark Conrad - 24 Jul 2009 01:50 GMT
<http://idaconcpts.com/2008/12/05/a-not-so-simple-question-how-many-mac-
users-are-there-in-the-world/>

Mark-
Tim McNamara - 24 Jul 2009 03:12 GMT
137.  But we're really vocal, so it seems like more.
Golan Klinger - 24 Jul 2009 03:29 GMT
> 137.

137 now? That's awesome. Who's the new guy?

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Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest.

Gerry - 24 Jul 2009 03:34 GMT
> > 137.
>
> 137 now? That's awesome. Who's the new guy?

And here I thought the answer was 43.
jt august - 24 Jul 2009 16:27 GMT
> > > 137.
> >
> > 137 now? That's awesome. Who's the new guy?
>
> And here I thought the answer was 43.

No, the ultimate answer is 42.

jt
Tim McNamara - 24 Jul 2009 21:20 GMT
> > > > 137.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> No, the ultimate answer is 42.

What was the question again?
Mike Rosenberg - 24 Jul 2009 21:26 GMT
> What was the question again?

"Who's on first?"

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Michelle Steiner - 24 Jul 2009 21:35 GMT
> > What was the question again?
>
> "Who's on first?"

That's right.

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jt august - 25 Jul 2009 00:00 GMT
> > > > > 137.
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> What was the question again?

I dunno.  The damn computer blew up.  I think it was running an MS
Service Pack update at the time, although it could have been those
yellow things hanging in the air in exactly the same way that bricks
don't.  Either way, the poetry was horrible.

jt
Mark Conrad - 24 Jul 2009 05:33 GMT
> 137 now? That's awesome. Who's the new guy?

I am puzzled, the website never did say why
they used that guy Mac.

Was Mac a personal bodyguard, or something?

Think he may have been an android, because the site
kept referring to "units produced".

Mark-
Mark Conrad - 24 Jul 2009 10:20 GMT
Website mention a few guesses, 22 million, 25 million.

I was trying to figure out how so many vendors of Mac
software survived "on the fringes", so to speak.

Vendors such as the people who make "MacPractice MD",
a software product that sells for $2,000  to  $5,000
to doctors who use Macs.

It seems as complex as say Photoshop for example, their
company  _must_  have a lot of programmers.

So, using simple logic, lets assume a million doctors.

Say one percent of them buy MacPractice.

1000  x  $2,000   =   $2,000,000 yearly sales

Hardly enough to keep even a small software shop alive,
when one considers that a tiny company like MacSpeech
with only  _ten_  programmers is struggling to stay alive
making sales of between one and two million a year.

My math must be off, perhaps there are more than
a million english-speaking Mac-using doctors world wide.

"MacPractice MD"  is used to fill out medical forms.

<http://www.macpractice.com/mp/md/>

If one follows all the links at that site, it is downright
amazing how complex their software is.

Mark-
Alpha - 24 Jul 2009 22:44 GMT
> Website mention a few guesses, 22 million, 25 million.
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Mark-

Despite the retail prices, real implementation of this system must cost 5
figures for a moderate sized practice.  Therefore you are very much
low-balling this.  Much of the revenue comes from clinics with multiple
doctors and hundreds if not thousands of clients.

(I was unaware of MacPractice until recently.  However, it appears a viable
possibility.  All of my healthcare providers, including optics, hospital,
clinic, and dentistry are running Dell hardware with Windows).
Mark Conrad - 24 Jul 2009 23:56 GMT
> > My math must be off, perhaps there are more than
> > a million english-speaking Mac-using doctors world wide.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> clinics with multiple doctors and hundreds
> if not thousands of clients.

Okay, that sounds logical, because a moderate sized practice would be
unlikely to get by with just  _one_  license for a $5,000 version
of the software.

> I was unaware of MacPractice until recently.  However, it
> appears a viable possibility.  All of my healthcare providers,
> including optics, hospital, clinic, and dentistry are running
> Dell hardware with Windows.

Figures.

MacPractice can handle writing to the most popular EMR and EHR
Windows forms, but the difficulty arises when Windows users try
writing back to MacPractice, I believe.

Naturally, Windows medical apps have no reason to even acknowledge
any existence of MacPractice, because they already essentially "own"
the medical  EMR/EHR  market.

Apparently MacPractice has already grabbed a chunk of that market,
will be interesting to see if they can grab more.

One thing that held MacPractice back was they had no  _quick_  way to
"speech dictate"  into the fields of EMR forms.

That changed as of a month ago, MacPractice lost no time advertising
that "MacPractice MD" will work with "MacSpeech Dictate Medical"
for filling in EMR/EHR by voice, instead of typing.

Problem is MacSpeech still has to be handled carefully, like a vial
of nitroglycerin.

Below is a radiological extract I dictated into MacSpeech Medical
recently, with 100% raw accuracy, no text or punctuation
corrections whatever.

MacSpeech still very rough around the edges, only works
that well in the hands of people like me.

For example, because of the "NewLine" bug (medical only,
bug absent in the standard non-medical version) - - -

I had to do the awkward workaround of dictating the original
file as one long line, then throw the file into BBEdit and set the
hard line-breaks at 48 character for the below example.

...otherwise the NewLine bug would have capitalized the first
letter on every line.

- - - start radiological extract dictation example - - -

Spinal Cord - Radiation Damage

The post-irradiation lower motor neuron syndrome
neuronopathy or radiculopathy?

Bowen J, Gregory R, Squier M, Donaghy M.

Department of Clinical Neurology, Radcliffe
Infirmary, Oxford, UK.

It is not known whether the post-irradiation
lower motor neuron syndrome results from
radiation damage to motor neuron cell bodies or
from damage to the nerve roots of the cauda
equina. ... The first reported neuropathological
study... was performed in one patient who died.
This showed a radiation-induced vasculopathy of
the proximal spinal roots, with preservation of
motor neuronal cell bodies and spinal cord
architecture. These clinical, radiological,
neurophysiological and pathological findings all
point to a predominantly, but not exclusively,
motor radiculopathy affecting the irradiated
portion of the cauda equina proximal to the
dorsal root ganglia. Radiation exposure exceeded
40 Gy both in our series and in previous
reports. The natural history of this disorder is
one of relentless deterioration occasionally
punctuated by 1-2-year periods of stability.
Post-irradiation lumbosacral radiculopathy is a
more accurate name for this condition.

- - - end radiological extract dictation example - - -

Mark-
Tim McNamara - 25 Jul 2009 03:36 GMT
> One thing that held MacPractice back was they had no  _quick_  way to
> "speech dictate"  into the fields of EMR forms.

You're way obsessed about this, but I have heard nearly zero interest in
voice recognition from the people who work in my clinic nor in the dozen
nursing homes and hospitals where I work.  Being able to dictate into
your computer is just not the big deal you think it is.
Mark Conrad - 25 Jul 2009 05:31 GMT
> > One thing that held MacPractice back was they had no  _quick_  way to
> > "speech dictate"  into the fields of EMR forms.
>
> You're way obsessed about this

Wrong,  you are the one who is obsessed with the status quo.

If you would open you eyes, you would realize that things
could not be the way you state they are, because outfits
like Nuance (Dragon) - and MacPractice would go broke
overnight.

As it is, they are both making great gooey gobs of money.

> but I have heard nearly zero interest in voice recognition
> from the people who work in my clinic nor in the
> dozen nursing homes and hospitals where I work.

Yeah, the world is full of stupid people who still jump
up and down on keyboards like a bunch of crazed monkeys.

> Being able to dictate into your computer is
> just not the big deal you think it is.

Wrong.

Typing is still okay for some situations, however it is
slower that speaking, demands a skilled typist, ties up
a persons hands which would otherwise be free to do
other things.   Typing distracts the typist from thinking,
more than speaking distracts the speaker from thinking.

Typing requires access to a keyboard.  A doctor by contrast
has access to speech recognition constantly, keyboard or not.

I even have access to speech recognition when I am jogging.

A doctor having to rely on his memory until he has access to
a keyboard is just asking for medical mistakes, and errors
of omission, if he delays committing his observations
to text for lack of a keyboard.

Most doctors prefer to do their paperwork/dictation  _while_
they are making their rounds, instead of the present way of
staying 3 hours after their shift to do the paperwork.

Mark-
Ian Gregory - 25 Jul 2009 11:59 GMT
> Typing requires access to a keyboard.  A doctor by contrast
> has access to speech recognition constantly, keyboard or not.

However, you were talking about filling in complex online forms, which
is not really practical unless you are sitting in front of a screen, in
which case you probably do have access to a keyboard and mouse. And if
the form was well designed there would be relatively little typing
involved; you would largely be using the mouse to check radio buttons,
select from drop-down menus etc, for which voice recognition would be
pretty useless.

If there was a free-form text box and you wanted to enter a longish
description of something and you didn't have great typing skills and you
were in a reasonably quiet environment and people around you would not
be disturbed by your talking well then yes, good speech recognition
would be nice for that bit; it is just nowhere near the panacea that you
seem to think it is.

Ian

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Mark Conrad - 25 Jul 2009 14:42 GMT
> However, you were talking about filling in complex
> online forms, which is not really practical unless
> you are sitting in front of a screen...

Well, yes and no.

Because the doctor has a complete text version of all his
observations made during his shift, those forms can be
filled in by a skilled medical assistants,  (plural)
working from the text version the doctor accumulated
during his shift, supplemented by the audio record
synced to each and every one of his medical text words.

Dragon has this synced audio, MacSpeech does not. (yet)

Doctor can literally take off, go home, by the time he
arrives home the PDFs from all the assistants are
waiting in the tray of his printer - - - he spends ten
minutes doing the final review of all those forms,
just in case any medical assistant made a mistake.

Beats staying 3 hours at the clinic trying to decipher
his own scribbled notes.

> And if the form was well designed there would be
> relatively little typing involved; you would largely
> be using the mouse to check radio buttons, select
> from drop-down menus etc, for which
> voice recognition would be
> pretty useless.

Not really.   The form "filling-out" software is designed
by doctors nowadays to be just as quick for navigating
by voice, as mousing and keyboarding were, otherwise
there would be no reason for using apps like MacPractice
in the first place.

Simple voice macros can navigate anywhere at all in a
complex EMR form with a few quick voice commands.

It works like this:   I say "Address is" and the cursor
immediately jumps to the address box on the form,
faster than you could get there by mousing.

"Address is    5624 Hilltop Drive  Apt 3"

Someone designs a brand new form not covered by
existing voice commands, no problem, just create
some new macros to navigate the new form,
macro creation is made easy so a dumb doctor can
do it.

> it is just nowhere near the panacea that you
> seem to think it is.

I believe I am well aware of the limitations of
speech apps, more so than most doctors, judging by
some of their stupid posts in the MacSpeech forum.

Anything is possible, I guess.   I will let you know for
certain, because I am negotiating with MacPractice
for an actual demo' - - - if it is not radically faster
than typing, I will be the first one to shout that fact to
all who will listen.

$5,000 for an app  _only_  as good as typing?

Not likely I would buy anything like that.

If you check my past posts, I have been brutal about
listing the flaws associated with speech apps of all kinds.

Mark-
Tim McNamara - 25 Jul 2009 20:52 GMT
> > However, you were talking about filling in complex online forms,
> > which is not really practical unless you are sitting in front of a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the doctor accumulated during his shift, supplemented by the audio
> record synced to each and every one of his medical text words.

Good grief.  *This* is your notion of a solution?  We already have this!  
The doctor uses a telephone recording system or a pocket tape recorder
which is then typed by a transcriptionist.  Much simpler than the kludge
you're proposing.

> Dragon has this synced audio, MacSpeech does not. (yet)
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Beats staying 3 hours at the clinic trying to decipher his own
> scribbled notes.

I work with lots of doctors.  None of them do that.
Tim McNamara - 25 Jul 2009 20:48 GMT
> > > One thing that held MacPractice back was they had no  _quick_  
> > > way to "speech dictate"  into the fields of EMR forms.
> >
> > You're way obsessed about this
>
> Wrong,  you are the one who is obsessed with the status quo.

The First Corollary of Mark Conrad:  disagreement with Mark Conrad =
"obsessed with the status quo."  Thanks for clearing that up.  LOL!

I'm not obsessed with the status quo.  It's just that in my practice and
that of all of my colleagues transcription software is a non-starter.  
For someone sitting in a quiet office, transcription software might
work.  For my practice (and everyone I work with, which is several
hundred providers) it would not.  We do not have a quiet private area in
which to dictate, compromising health information privacy (and therefore
being out of compliance with HIPPA); the accuracy of the software is
also compromised by this.  This would also hold for most providers in
hospitals.

On top of that, of the hundreds of providers I work with in my practice,
few have expressed a desire to have voice recognition software on a
computer.  Most would rather go back to writing by hand in a chart
rather than use computers at all, due to the annoying deficiencies of
current EMRs.

> If you would open you eyes, you would realize that things could not
> be the way you state they are, because outfits like Nuance (Dragon) -
> and MacPractice would go broke overnight.
>
> As it is, they are both making great gooey gobs of money.

Good for them.  I'm sure their investors are happy with that.  Dragon's
Win-PC product was unacceptably poor in performance of medical dictation
for the colleague that test-piloted it for our clinic.  It took damned
near as long to correct the report as to just type it.  My boss was
bummed, as a medical transcriptionist costs about $2 per page and we
generate many thousands of pages of documentation per year.  Reliable
dictation software would be much cheaper in the long run.

> > but I have heard nearly zero interest in voice recognition from the
> > people who work in my clinic nor in the dozen nursing homes and
> > hospitals where I work.
>
> Yeah, the world is full of stupid people who still jump up and down
> on keyboards like a bunch of crazed monkeys.

Ah, the Second Corollary of Mark Conrad:  all who disagree with Mark
Conrad about the value of voice recognition are crazed monkeys.

> > Being able to dictate into your computer is just not the big deal
> > you think it is.
>
> Wrong.

Ooh, that's convincing!

> Typing is still okay for some situations, however it is slower that
> speaking, demands a skilled typist, ties up a persons hands which
> would otherwise be free to do other things.   Typing distracts the
> typist from thinking, more than speaking distracts the speaker from
> thinking.

Typing gets the job done and provides minimal distractions, except for
people with really poor typing skills.  The time lag between thinking
and typing is perhaps a bit longer than that between thinking and
speaking, but that is actually a good thing as it provides a moment to
think how to phrase and also to rethink the information collected from
the examination.

> Typing requires access to a keyboard.  A doctor by contrast has
> access to speech recognition constantly, keyboard or not.

Malarkey.

> I even have access to speech recognition when I am jogging.

That's called "talking to yourself."

> A doctor having to rely on his memory until he has access to a
> keyboard is just asking for medical mistakes, and errors of omission,
> if he delays committing his observations to text for lack of a
> keyboard.

Doctors' access to a keyboard in medical facilities is not a problem,
Mark.  Have you worked in the medical field?

> Most doctors prefer to do their paperwork/dictation  _while_ they are
> making their rounds, instead of the present way of staying 3 hours
> after their shift to do the paperwork.

My laptop is with me when I do rounds, Mark, and my typing is done
within 10 minutes of seeing the patient.  My progress notes are printed
and signed before I leave the facility.  Simple, no fuss, no muss.  And
I get to do it with free software that produces interoperable files with
all computer operating systems and text editors/word processors (the
excellent NeoOffice).
Wes Groleau - 25 Jul 2009 21:33 GMT
> For someone sitting in a quiet office, transcription software might
> work.  For my practice (and everyone I work with, which is several
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> also compromised by this.  This would also hold for most providers in
> hospitals.

In general, I share your opinion that Mark Conrad is out of touch.

On the other hand, I work for a large non-profit health care system.
Doctors and surgeons in most (if not all) of our seven hospitals
dictate reports.  The text files and the audio files then go to our
transcription department.  Most of these people telecommute, listening
to the audio while comparing it to the text to make corrections.

I admit it's not perfect.  When my wife was under for removal of
a tumor from the left breast and lymph nodes from the axilla, the
surgeon as a favor (yes, we asked) also removed a lipoma from her
right shoulder.  The report says "lymph node" instead of "lipoma."

> On top of that, of the hundreds of providers I work with in my practice,
> few have expressed a desire to have voice recognition software on a
> computer.  Most would rather go back to writing by hand in a chart
> rather than use computers at all, due to the annoying deficiencies of
> current EMRs.

Orders and brief notes are still done on paper and transferred to
files by clerks and nurses.  I personally think dictation would be
better.  Thanks to one doctor's talent for calligraphy, I had HALF
as much Lovenox each day as I was supposed to have.

> bummed, as a medical transcriptionist costs about $2 per page and we
> generate many thousands of pages of documentation per year.  Reliable
> dictation software would be much cheaper in the long run.

I'd encourage you to give Dragon another chance.  I set up the $120
version for a friend with Parkinson's and was quite impressed with
its accuracy.  But then, he does not use it for medical Latin. :-)

>> [Mark says] I even have access to speech recognition when I am jogging.

Yeah, right.  How much time does he spend correcting the errors
caused when it tries to turn his footfalls and panting into words?

> Doctors' access to a keyboard in medical facilities is not a problem,
> Mark.  Have you worked in the medical field?

Obviously not.  In all of our clinical areas, one is rarely more than
fifty feet from a networked (WiFi) laptop on a cart.

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Kurt Ullman - 25 Jul 2009 22:14 GMT
> Obviously not.  In all of our clinical areas, one is rarely more than
> fifty feet from a networked (WiFi) laptop on a cart.

 Even on the Psych Unit in our hospital (which is in a building that
dates from the mid-1930s, so we are twice blessed-grin), you are rarely
more than 100 feet from a computer.

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Mark Conrad - 26 Jul 2009 00:45 GMT
In article
<kurtullman-07B9A3.17142325072009@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>, Kurt
Ullman <kurtullman@yahoo.com> wrote:

>  Even on the Psych Unit in our hospital (which is in a building
>  that dates from the mid-1930s, so we are twice blessed-grin),
>  you are rarely more than 100 feet from a computer.

Popular around here is the wireless mic  (NOT Bluetooth)
the "Airline 77" from Samson.  (642-645 MHz)

It has a range of 300 feet, so we do not worry too much
about how close the nearest Mac is.

Unless we want to look at a MRI or a CAT scan, then we
have to chase down a Mac.

Mark-
Tim McNamara - 25 Jul 2009 03:33 GMT
> > Website mention a few guesses, 22 million, 25 million.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> optics, hospital, clinic, and dentistry are running Dell hardware
> with Windows).

The clinic where I work has been through multiple iterations and several
nightmares over this sort of software.  It's a horrible field lacking in
open standards and cloaked in proprietary bullshit (leading to the data
from one system not being portable to a new system, and once not being
portable between updates of the same system).  We have spent hundreds of
thousands of dollars in the past decade on this.

Medical billing is ridiculously complex at the best of times.  Our
billing situation is complex because we offer a huge spectrum of
services.  We've got 90+ clinicians providing services in one or more of
five clinic locations, plus clinicians going out to nursing homes, board
and care facilities, assisted living facilities, group homes, regular
homes.  We have fee-for-service patients and patients seen under county
contracts.  Some insurance companies pay a capitated rate, some pay
fee-for-service.  It's not unusual to have to send out three to five
bills to payor sources who each pay a portion of the bill.  Different
payors pay at wildly different rates and we are on the hook for tracking
and refunding overpayments.  We have thousands of patients at different
levels of care and sometimes seeing several clinicians concurrently.  
Different insurance companies require bills submitted in different
formats (our system has to be able to submit bills to dozens of
insurance companies with 100% accuracy; since these are usually batched
submissions, a mistake kicks out the whole batch).

A single payor system.  Wow.  For providers, life could be *so* much
simpler with a single payor system.  Only sending out one bill per
service, to one place, using one data format.  It costs $2-3 to send a
bill out; a single payor system would cut our billing costs at least in
half (that by itself would save us over $150,000-175,000 a year in labor
costs; multiply $2-6 by the total number of billable patient services
performed each year in the US and you are talking real money).
Mark Conrad - 25 Jul 2009 05:31 GMT
> The clinic where I work has been through multiple iterations and several
> nightmares over this sort of software.  It's a horrible field lacking in
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> costs; multiply $2-6 by the total number of billable patient services
> performed each year in the US and you are talking real money).

I agree with everything above that you posted to "Alpha".

Some entrenched and very greedy IT departments would argue against
a single payor system, on the basis that clerical staff likes one
system, doctors like another, insurance companies another,
Medicare another, etc., etc., etc.

That is easy enough to incorporate, the "standard" system could be
designed so that only the items concerned with "clerical"  issues
would appear on the clerical version of the standard form.

In other words, the standard form would morph (look different)
depending on which medical department was filling it out.

Entrenched IT departments would hate that simplicity.

IT leaches thrive on Tower-of-Babel complexity.

If some do not like the standard, they can always go back
to filling out hundreds of non-compatible forms, hire huge
IT departments to manage the mess, and screw the taxpayer
who has to pay for it all.

Mark-
Tim McNamara - 24 Jul 2009 16:06 GMT
> > 137 now? That's awesome. Who's the new guy?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Think he may have been an android, because the site kept referring to
> "units produced".

It's a euphemism.
Mike Rosenberg - 24 Jul 2009 16:16 GMT
> It's a euphemism.

That's all for one, and one for all, and you for me, and me for you, and
eupehmism.

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Howard S Shubs - 26 Jul 2009 20:56 GMT
> > 137.
>
> 137 now? That's awesome. Who's the new guy?

Sorry, I got myself an alias.

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Howard S Shubs - 26 Jul 2009 20:56 GMT
> <http://idaconcpts.com/2008/12/05/a-not-so-simple-question-how-many-mac-
> users-are-there-in-the-world/>

3.

One.
Two.
Three. <crunch>

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