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Mac Forum / Country Specific / UK Mac Group / January 2004Calling heavy Quark users......
Ok. So you use Quark a lot. Its the first program you open when you start up. You import PDF, TIFFS, .docs, and JPGs, you auto-activate your fonts. Document are normally more than 20 pages. You're 'kin hard. How often a day will Quark crash on you? Like to know what OS , what v. Quark, if you work in a network enviroment, if so what the server. Trying to pin down if the problem is Quark, the server, OS9, whatever. > Ok. So you use Quark a lot. Its the first program you open when you start > up. You import PDF, TIFFS, .docs, and JPGs, you auto-activate your fonts. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Trying to pin down if the problem is Quark, the server, OS9, whatever. This post might be more relevant to comp.publish.prepress - it's full of very heavy users ;-) 4.1 on OS9 crashes at least 3 times a day here. We aren't going to bother upgrading because InDesign is better, cheaper and allows us to work with consistent colour and .psd's.  SignatureMartin On 12/1/04 17:57, in article btun74$5dg$1$830fa79d@news.demon.co.uk, >> Trying to pin down if the problem is Quark, the server, OS9, whatever. > > This post might be more relevant to comp.publish.prepress - it's full of > very heavy users ;-) Good point... > 4.1 on OS9 crashes at least 3 times a day here. We aren't going to > bother upgrading because InDesign is better, cheaper and allows us to > work with consistent colour and .psd's. If only I had the option...... Yes, everybody knows InDesign is better. Getting people to actually move is.... Surprisingly difficult. > On 12/1/04 17:57, in article btun74$5dg$1$830fa79d@news.demon.co.uk, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > If only I had the option...... Yes, everybody knows InDesign is better. > Getting people to actually move is.... Surprisingly difficult. Show them the price list, esp if they qualify in any which way shape or form for educational, student, charity etc discount. We get the full Indesign for £100 that way. Going on current pricings any future upgrades to Indesign will be much cheaper than any Quark offer too, although that obviously may change if they take over in the market. SignatureJon jon.bradbury@btinternet.com > If only I had the option...... Yes, everybody knows InDesign is better. > Getting people to actually move is.... Surprisingly difficult. Getting my designers to move is EASY, getting any of the clients / printers to accept anything other than quark files is impossible. Thats where the issue lies for me! On 17/1/04 14:25, in article 181d2311.0401170625.3edbb422@posting.google.com, "beenie" <a_temp_address@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >> If only I had the option...... Yes, everybody knows InDesign is better. >> Getting people to actually move is.... Surprisingly difficult. > > Getting my designers to move is EASY, getting any of the clients / printers > to accept anything other than quark files is impossible. ? Every printer I know wants PDFs so they can blame the customer when the print comes out shite. Bonge Boo!: > Beenie: >> Getting my designers to move is EASY, getting any of the clients / printers >> to accept anything other than quark files is impossible. > > ? Every printer I know wants PDFs so they can blame the customer when the > print comes out shite. Agreed: one printer of my close aquaintance will not accept anything *other* than PDFs. But how on earth can the customer be blamed if they're using, er, the format the printer wants? S On 17/1/04 15:04, in article BC2EFF85.266BC%simonmailNOSPAM@btinternet.com, > But how on earth can the customer be blamed if they're using, er, the format > the printer wants? Err. Fonts missing in the PDFs, images as RGB not CYMK, and on and on. Ask Martin. He's does proper printing and I'm sure knows how customer give him iffy files to output. > > If only I had the option...... Yes, everybody knows InDesign is better. > > Getting people to actually move is.... Surprisingly difficult. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thats where the issue lies for me! Most of our local printers are now accepting Indesign files, but as others have said, most are now working to PDFs instead anyway. SignatureJon jon.bradbury@btinternet.com > Ok. So you use Quark a lot. Its the first program you open when you start > up. You import PDF, TIFFS, .docs, and JPGs, you auto-activate your fonts. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Trying to pin down if the problem is Quark, the server, OS9, whatever. Assume it's Quark. 9 times out of 10, it will be. QX is a pile of poo, but you probably knew that already. SignaturePd > How often a day will Quark crash on you? Like to know what OS , what v. > Quark, if you work in a network enviroment, if so what the server. From, at best, three times a day to a peak somewhere in the 20s. Using QXP 4.1, on QPS 2.08. Mostly mac environ, with NT picture servers, unix filestore for QPS. > Trying to pin down if the problem is Quark, the server, OS9, whatever. It's Quark. No two ways about it. It's terrible, rotten, rubbish software[1] and it's giving The Boss the excuse to move to PCs and InDesign. A [1] But would actually be great if it weren't so unstable. The design and ethos is nice, it's just poorly implemented. I can think of any number of ways to make it crash ... Ways that are so common I sigh just after doing something stupid (like space/align or spell checking) but before the crash actually and inevitably happens. > > Trying to pin down if the problem is Quark, the server, OS9, whatever. > It's Quark. No two ways about it. It's terrible, rotten, rubbish software[1] > and it's giving The Boss the excuse to move to PCs and InDesign. Why PC's and InDesign, and not just InDesign? Or is it just that they're 'old' Macs? I love InDesign, and I don't use for more than Newsletters and leaflets just yet ..... it's just ideal. SignatureAntony Pull the plug to reply. Antony Lacey: >> It's Quark. No two ways about it. It's terrible, rotten, rubbish software[1] >> and it's giving The Boss the excuse to move to PCs and InDesign. > > Why PC's and InDesign, and not just InDesign? Or is it just that they're > 'old' Macs? Christ knows. Because IT are secretly lobbying so that it's easier for them to get support staff. Because the Boss was snubbed by Apple when he went looking for discounts. Because then the whole company can be on "one platform"[1]. Because his sandwich had cheese in it. Allan [1] Mmm, yes, homogenous environments are so resistant to attack and disaster. Ask plants. Or the nuclear power plants hit by Blaster or sobig or whatever-the-big-virus-was. On 14/1/04 1:40, in article BC2A4E78.2E06%spam1r9jxjpr9usr1i02maps@sneakemail.com, "Allan Donald" <spam1r9jxjpr9usr1i02maps@sneakemail.com> wrote: >>> It's Quark. No two ways about it. It's terrible, rotten, rubbish software[1] >>> and it's giving The Boss the excuse to move to PCs and InDesign. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > looking for discounts. Because then the whole company can be on "one > platform"[1]. Because his sandwich had cheese in it. Make the virus argument to him...... IT of course want to eliminate anything they don't understand and can't lock down. Bonge Boo!: > AD: >> Christ knows. Because IT are secretly lobbying so that it's easier for them [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Make the virus argument to him...... IT of course want to eliminate anything > they don't understand and can't lock down. Er, yes. Like Macs, in this case. I put the pro-Mac argument to this chap - nice bloke, actually - at a meeting a few months ago, just after he bought my plums (and Allan's, and a few hundred other people's) on a big expensive plate. He didn't buy it. Basically, they want a homogenous environment on one platform across the whole company, with all its many offices. They also want people who can fix the computers when they break: and finding trained Mac staff seems to be nigh-on impossible. Hell, I know more about our Mac system than pretty much all our IT staff. The boss said he'd much rather use a Mac if he had the choice ... but pointed out, not unreasonably, that none of us [1] actually *needs* to have a powerful/simple/decent computer. We just need a box on our desk that lets us produce our newspapers ... and, as I think I've said here before, I'd much rather have a sh.t PC running up-to-date InDesign than an ageing G4 running f***ing Quark 3.f***ing3. Which is what I have right now. And I'm trying to produce an award-winning magazine on it. Marvellous. He also said he'd approached Apple (in what form, I don't know) on a few occasions asking about bulk-buying deals etc ... the impression he got was that they weren't interested. (Remember: this is *WHAT THE BOSS TOLD ME*, OK? Don't start kicking off at me about whether or not this is likely to be the case.) His feeling was that they didn't really give a stuff whether national newspapers used their kit or not: they were far more concerned about the home entertainment market these days. Fair enough, I suppose, if that's where the money is. Not once did he actually mention cost, oddly enough. His pro-PC argument is very much down to homogenisation, nothing else. Viruses? He didn't seem to mind. S (Following on from my previous message, which is kind of half-finished [2].) >>they don't understand and can't lock down. > > Er, yes. Like Macs, in this case. Sorry, Clive, I've just realised that was the point you were making ... I completely misunderstood that, for some reason. It's been a long day. > Not once did he actually mention cost, oddly enough. His pro-PC argument is > very much down to homogenisation, nothing else. Viruses? He didn't seem to > mind. What I should add here (because I've only just thought of it) is that the boss - like bosses worldwide - isn't going to buy any of the arguments we come up with, for the plain and simple reason that almost everybody else in the world uses a PC. Yes, there are periodic virus scares ... but until the country is brought sobbing to its knees, they'll be ignored. Yes, there are all those studies showing that Mac users are fitter, happier and more productive; but hey, the rest of the world struggles by with its PCs, so why shouldn't we? Bosses feel safe with Windows because everybody else is using it. It's as simple as that. As someone else says in another thread, Apple should be going all-out to posit OS X as a viable rival to Windows. At the moment it's all a bit esoteric: Unix! Digital hubs! Fine if you're as sad as I am, but hardly boss-pleasing. Their message should be simple: X is safer, stabler and more productive than Windows. Why run with the herd? But maybe they've got a grand plan. We can but hope. S [2] There's a missing footnote, for a start. It should have read: [1] Except, of course, some of the graphic artists. Me: I'm a sub. I draw pages, which is pretty simple; and edit copy, which you can basically do in bloody SimpleText. The boss is right: I really don't need a lovely Mac to do any of that. I'd like one, yes, but I can't say I actually *need* one. But ... do you even *get* Illustrator on the PC? And, if you do, isn't it honkingly sh.t? >Bosses feel safe with Windows because everybody else is using >it. It's as simple as that. Remember the old, old saying. "Nobody ever got fired for chooosing IBM". May be out of date now (unless you're running an Olympiad), but the principle remains. The guys out on a limb at the moment are those introducing Linux into major commercial computing operations. SignaturePeter Simon: > pointed out, not unreasonably, that none of us [1] actually *needs* to have [1] Except Allan. And all the truly talented people, who get hives on PCs and will press the wrong mouse button. Their jobs will become much harder. Their shiny black Dells will be faster ... And will crash faster. Huzzah. Mike Jenkins: > I have Wintel and Mac experience and I have to choose Wintel > (reluctantly) because there is no proper Exchange client or version of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of Classic, Virtual PC or Terminal Services would be gratefully > received). Mike, what do you use Exchange for? Are you in the position of power at your company, or are you looking for an end-user solution that will let just you and colleagues use Macs? I've been looking at groupware suitable for a smallish firm for a while, and there are actually a few very good options, depending on how many of Exchange's features you use. These options, you see, are usually very good at one or two things only. I'm not a big advocate of Exchange at all. To me, deployment of it for just a bit of mail and calendars ranks of greater ignorance than running Windows in the first place. Case in point: At my work we suffer in many ways because we really only use it to run an internet mail server, which has to be its weakest point by a long way. We are currently suffering serious degradation of service because a bombardment of spam is bringing the rather powerful and expensive server to its knees. Naturally, the solutions that would be trivial under sendmail/qmail/whatever are vastly expensive upgrades to Exchange. So we have virtually no internet mail service for long periods of time. And we're barred from using webmail of any kind. Yet we have to keep it, if only to synchronise us with the rest of the group (there's that homogenity again). Virtually nobody in the company (who matters to the cashflow) uses it for its one real strength - document management and intricate calendering. Anyway, I did find a few good products that can replace elements of Exchange ... And save a ton of cash. Let me know what you use it for and I'll dig out my recommendations and see if any are of use. Allan Allan Donald: > Simon: >> pointed out, not unreasonably, that none of us [1] actually *needs* to have > > [1] Except Allan. And all the truly talented people You're dead tomorrow. I'll see you behind the bike sheds at 3.30. S > > Why PC's and InDesign, and not just InDesign? Or is it just that they're > > 'old' Macs? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > looking for discounts. Because then the whole company can be on "one > platform"[1]. Because his sandwich had cheese in it. Ah, no real reason then. Shame people think like this ....... I gave my old Mac to a local school Art Department, they loved it, and several students used it for their A level art and got some very good results (I went in to help them do some of their work). When the IT department sent bought new computers, they bought PCs that could hardly run Photoshop - because that's all the IT dept. could handle. Grrrrr!!!! SignatureAntony Pull the plug to reply. > When the IT department sent bought new computers, they bought PCs that > could hardly run Photoshop - because that's all the IT dept. could > handle. Grrrrr!!!! I think that this seems to be a very typical action. Most if not all IT personnel seem to only have wintel experience and therefore choose wintel equipment by default. Regardless of suitability. The local college had 10 eMacs. Every time there is a problem - and regardless of the reason - the IT dept. re-install the system..... SignatureDavid Kennedy http://www.anindianinexile.com >> When the IT department sent bought new computers, they bought PCs that >> could hardly run Photoshop - because that's all the IT dept. could [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Regardless of suitability. I have Wintel and Mac experience and I have to choose Wintel (reluctantly) because there is no proper Exchange client or version of MS Access for Mac OS X. I would dearly love to get away from Windows security update hell and especially would love to issue Powerbooks to sales staff but until there is a decent Enterprise level group messaging system on Mac OS I am stuck (any suggestions not comprising of Classic, Virtual PC or Terminal Services would be gratefully received). Also any attempt to get a £579 128MB 1Ghz eMac with 1 year carry in warranty approved compared to a £449 256MB 2Ghz HP with 3 year onsite warranty and a 17" monitor is doomed from the start. SignatureMike Jenkins Dreamcast/Gamecube FAQs - http://www.kwik-e-mart.org Mike's Auctions: http://makeashorterlink.com/?W49D31BA1 > > When the IT department sent bought new computers, they bought PCs that > > could hardly run Photoshop - because that's all the IT dept. could [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Regardless of suitability. These were for art, but they had to be 'network' compatible. When I pointed out that the Mac was, and took my Powerbook in and connected to the school network within 10 minutes, they were surprised. The real thorn is that the Art department isn't connected to the Network anyway, it's in a seperate building yet to be cabled. Those computers sit there very underused - my G3 is still being used on a daily basis - which gives me a nice warm feeling. There's a new guy in charge of IT now though, who's at least Mac savvy, not keen, but he has said they are better for some things than PC's, so my fingers are crossed. > The local college had 10 eMacs. Every time there is a problem - and > regardless of the reason - the IT dept. re-install the system..... Makes you wonder ..... SignatureAntony Pull the plug to reply. On 14/1/04 18:31, in article 1g7kdy2.1n7oi0517dfjuqN%allatsea@plug.drivers.org.uk, "Antony Lacey" <allatsea@plug.drivers.org.uk> wrote: >> The local college had 10 eMacs. Every time there is a problem - and >> regardless of the reason - the IT dept. re-install the system..... > > Makes you wonder ..... Well if you are pressed for time. Reinstall the OS, bung a couple of apps on. Often the fasted solution, especially as usually you can do other stuff whilst watching progress bars.... >Well if you are pressed for time. Reinstall the OS, bung a couple of apps >on. Often the fasted solution, especially as usually you can do other stuff >whilst watching progress bars.... Very sensible. Clive, I can't get used to this Bonge Boo! business. You wouldn't consider reverting to the name that conjures up a whole history of intelligent posts, would you? Or is Clive spending a year dead for tax reasons? SignaturePeter > >Well if you are pressed for time. Reinstall the OS, bung a couple of apps > >on. Often the fasted solution, especially as usually you can do other stuff [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > reverting to the name that conjures up a whole history of intelligent > posts, would you? Or is Clive spending a year dead for tax reasons? Frankly I can't see the point either, unless somebody can fill us in on the big secret, munged address yes, but munging your name?? SignatureJon jon.bradbury@btinternet.com > > >Well if you are pressed for time. Reinstall the OS, bung a couple of apps > > >on. Often the fasted solution, especially as usually you can do other stuff [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Frankly I can't see the point either, unless somebody can fill us in on > the big secret, munged address yes, but munging your name?? Maybe Clive has a stalker? Or it's a secret code...? > Ok. So you use Quark a lot. Its the first program you open when you start > up. You import PDF, TIFFS, .docs, and JPGs, you auto-activate your fonts. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Trying to pin down if the problem is Quark, the server, OS9, whatever. It doesn't matter what version of Quark or OS you are using - it is a very unreliable piece of software. In fact, it is the only piece of software that crashes here (out of the usual Mac design suspects). Version 6 is particularly interesting in that it tends to crash whilst saving, and therefore completely nukes your file - sometimes making it vanish completely. Shame really - I really like using it. Thom |
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