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Mac Forum / Programming / Perl / December 2007



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CamelBones: Maintainer needed

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Sherm Pendley - 14 Dec 2007 15:52 GMT
I haven't had a real job in years, and I'm at a point now where I don't even
care about that, about CamelBones, about Perl, or really about much of
anything else computer-related. I've had more than enough time to ship a
Leopard-compatible CamelBones, but I just haven't been able to find the
enthusiasm to get it (or anything else) done. I sit down at the computer,
start up Xcode, and I think, what's the point? I've spent a lifetime writing
code, and it's gotten me nowhere; what possible difference would a few more
hours make?

I've obviously got issues to deal with, and CamelBones users deserve, more
than anything else, a maintainer whose head is on straight. Someone who
cares about it and enjoys working on it. That isn't me, and it's way past
time for me to admit that.

Any volunteers?

sherm--
Tom Yarrish - 14 Dec 2007 16:07 GMT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sherm Pendley" <sherm.pendley@gmail.com>
To: macosx@perl.org
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 9:52:43 AM (GMT-0600) America/Chicago
Subject: CamelBones: Maintainer needed

I haven't had a real job in years, and I'm at a point now where I don't even
care about that, about CamelBones, about Perl, or really about much of
anything else computer-related. I've had more than enough time to ship a
Leopard-compatible CamelBones, but I just haven't been able to find the
enthusiasm to get it (or anything else) done. I sit down at the computer,
start up Xcode, and I think, what's the point? I've spent a lifetime writing
code, and it's gotten me nowhere; what possible difference would a few more
hours make?

I've obviously got issues to deal with, and CamelBones users deserve, more
than anything else, a maintainer whose head is on straight. Someone who
cares about it and enjoys working on it. That isn't me, and it's way past
time for me to admit that.

Any volunteers?

sherm--

Sherm,
Can you give an idea on the experience one would need to maintain it?  I'm assuming you wouldn't want a relative newbie to Perl to take it over.
(of course if it doesn't matter, I might be interested)

Tom

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Sherm Pendley - 14 Dec 2007 16:56 GMT
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sherm Pendley" <sherm.pendley@gmail.com>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> assuming you wouldn't want a relative newbie to Perl to take it over.
> (of course if it doesn't matter, I might be interested)

Oddly, there's not a whole lot of actual Perl code in it, although what's
there is kind of obscure. Autoload is used to catch method calls that aren't
implemented in Perl, and send them across the bridge, tied arrays and hashes
to implement the Perl side of "toll free" bridging, and attributes are used
to declare method signatures.

Of course, there's a good amount of XS programming involved. You'd need to
know your way around the perlembed, perlguts, and perlapi docs.

And you'd definitely need to know your way around Cocoa, and the Objective-C
runtime functions. Perl classes are registered with the ObjC runtime, and
participate directly in the inheritance hierarchy; the key difference with
such classes is that their selectors all share the same IMP (aka
implementation function), which uses Perl's internal API (i.e. perldoc
perlapi) to reflect the call to Perl. The ObjC runtime is also used to get a
list of registered classes at startup, after which libperl functions are
used to create all the packages and @ISA arrays that are needed for the
autoloading to work when Cocoa methods are called from Perl.

On the Cocoa side, there are NSArray and NSDictionary subclasses whose
primitive functions use libperl functions to access Perl's arrays and
hashes, respectively. To deal with that, you'd need to understand how
Cocoa's class clusters work, and how to add a new concrete subclass to them.

sherm--
Tom Yarrish - 14 Dec 2007 17:05 GMT
> Oddly, there's not a whole lot of actual Perl code in it, although
> what's
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> sherm--

Why not put a post up on use.perl.org or Perlbuzz?  There are plenty of Perl people out there that use/have experience with Macs.

Tom

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Jeremiah Foster - 14 Dec 2007 17:02 GMT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Yarrish [mailto:tom@yarrish.com]
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> newbie to Perl to take it over.
> (of course if it doesn't matter, I might be interested)

You're going to want to know a lot about how write applications for OS
X. At the very least you will want to have some passing familiarity with
Objective-C, XCode, and other Apple tools, like interface builder.

CamelBones is designed to make the underlying Objective-C API accessible
to perl. Obviously the more you know about the Objective-C API the
easier it is, at least that is what I would imagine.

    Jeremiah
Jeremiah Foster - 14 Dec 2007 16:52 GMT
Hello list, and hello Sherm,

1. That sucks. I am sorry to hear you feel that way. Not because of
CamelBones but because you sound depressed. I know you have been looking
for work - have you found any? A mailing list is not the best forum for
this kind of discussion perhaps, but I hope you feel better, you should
be proud of CamelBones.

2. I would be happy to maintain it. It would be a really interesting
project. I have been working with it for a bit, long enough to point out
known bugs at least. :) I am certain there are more qualified CamelBones
hackers out there, but I am familiar with it and it is something I like
working on. Plus I do some packaging for debian and I know a bit about
the internals of Mac OS X.

3. I think some kind of team maintainership is good. If Tom wants to
work on it, cool. If others want to work on it, cool. We do this in the
debian perl group and while it is more obvious how to share
responsibility when you are working on lots of packages, I still think
there is a way to work it out with something like CamelBones as well.

4. It is really important, I feel, that this project lives on. This is
one of the better ways to build graphical interfaces on the Mac.

    Jeremiah
   
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sherm Pendley [mailto:sherm.pendley@gmail.com]
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> sherm--
Sherm Pendley - 15 Dec 2007 05:37 GMT
> Hello list, and hello Sherm,
>
> 1. That sucks. I am sorry to hear you feel that way. Not because of
> CamelBones but because you sound depressed. I know you have been looking
> for work - have you found any? A mailing list is not the best forum for
> this kind of discussion perhaps, but I hope you feel better

Thanks for the support. I honestly don't know if how I'm feeling qualifies
as clinical depression, or just plain old blues. One reason I brought it up
in public is that it's been kind of feeding on itself. There's a bit of a
stigma attached to emotional issues, so I've been reluctant to say anything.
But keeping quiet meant keeping CB users in the dark about my reasons for
the lack of progress. Guilt about keeping y'all in the dark made me feel
worse... and so on. Breaking that cycle and being open about what's going on
has helped a little.

> , you should be proud of CamelBones.

Not to boast about it, but... I am proud of it! :-) It's my best technical
achievement to date. In terms of social importance and effect on people's
lives though, it still takes a back seat to my work on children's web sites
at WGBH. That was dead-simple CGI work, but how could I not feel good about
helping kids learn to read?

> 2. I would be happy to maintain it. It would be a really interesting
> project. I have been working with it for a bit, long enough to point out
> known bugs at least. :)

Fish in a barrel. :-)

> I am certain there are more qualified CamelBones
> hackers out there, but I am familiar with it and it is something I like
> working on. Plus I do some packaging for debian and I know a bit about
> the internals of Mac OS X.

There was actually a Debian package for 0.3. But, the GNUStep makefile has
fallen way out of date, and I'm not sure that the whole "support bundle"
scheme is really relevant there anyway. Given the system-wide package and
dependency management on Debian (and other Linux distros), there isn't the
need to have a single .app bundle that's binary-compatible with a variety of
libperl versions, like there is for a Mac OS X CamelBones.

3. I think some kind of team maintainership is good. If Tom wants to
> work on it, cool. If others want to work on it, cool. We do this in the
> debian perl group and while it is more obvious how to share
> responsibility when you are working on lots of packages, I still think
> there is a way to work it out with something like CamelBones as well.

Even being able to share the job would be a load off my mind. One source of
anxiety is just that there's no one else - if I have a breakdown, or get hit
by a bus, or whatever, it'd be pretty darned hard for someone else to pick
up the pieces. There are a lot of smart people here, and I'm sure the
project would go on eventually, but it would be a lot harder than it really
should be.

One way that people could help out would be documentation. I've been using
Drupal (yeah, I know, PHP, boo hiss...) on a community-oriented portal site
I built for a friend. Its "book" module actually looks pretty nice for
managing community-written docs.

There could be more example apps too - the current selection is pretty thin.
And, there could be more full-scale apps. A Perl-based office suite would be
interesting, and far too big a task for one person. I've always wondered why
there are no Perl-based word processors or text editors. Given Perl's
facility with text, it seems like it would be a pretty obvious idea.

4. It is really important, I feel, that this project lives on.

That's important to me also, which is why I'd rather step down than see it
derailed by my current situation and mental state.

sherm--
Joel Rees - 15 Dec 2007 12:41 GMT
Sherm,

Do you have a mailing list? Oh. You do, on sourceforge. And it looks  
like you've got someone there who's helping out a bit, too.

Good.

I'd offer to help with maintenance, but I'd be more like a bull in a  
China shop.

I might be able to help produce some sample source code, I'll have to  
see how things go over winter break. (I'm taking part-time work again  
to help pay the rent, but I should be able to do a little hacking  
after I wake up in the afternoons.)

Joel Rees
(waiting for a 3+GHz ARM processor to come out,
to test Steve's willingness to switch again.)
 
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