 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Mac Forum / Programming / Perl / May 2007CamelBones: Will hack for food!
Okay, the subject is sensationalistic - I'm not in danger of starving, and neither are my cats. But, I am less than two weeks away from losing my internet connection and web server. I'm broke and unemployed, or whatever the term is for owning a business that has zero paying customers. I guess that's what I get for living in the sticks - there's apparently as much demand for software developers in WV as there is for evolutionary biologists in Kansas. I need donations to CamelBones. Or web hosting customers. Or consulting clients. Or a plain old-fashioned job. Or something - and I need it soon. sherm-- Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net >I need donations to CamelBones. Or web hosting customers. Or consulting >clients. Or a plain old-fashioned job. Or something - and I need it soon. Good luck Sherm. I wish I had work I could punt your way. I wish even more that Apple had picked you up and made CamelBones a first class citizen. So, why has Apple ignored CamelBones?. Why did the OS X loving bit of the perl community sit by and let PyObjC become the default bridge. How depressing is it that there's not even a mention of perl in this quick round up by John Gruber (himself a keen user of perl)? http://daringfireball.net/2007/02/dynamic_scripting_languages And that's before Rails gets bundled by default with Leopard... > Why did the OS X loving bit of > the perl community sit by and let PyObjC become the default bridge. Because the vast majority of perl people who moved to OS X did so because it was Unix That Worked On A Laptop and not because it was Mac. Too many of us still sneer at anything non-Unix.  SignatureDavid Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive I apologize if I offended you personally, I intended to do it professionally. -- Steve Champeon, on the nanog list >> Why did the OS X loving bit of >> the perl community sit by and let PyObjC become the default bridge. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Mac. > Too many of us still sneer at anything non-Unix. It's not just in Mac circles either - there's a very widespread misconception that Perl is useful for system admins, web developers, and little else. One thing I find personally frustrating is the corollary, that Perl *programmers* must be admins or web devs. I find that frustrating because I'm not an admin, and while I don't mind web work, I don't want to focus on it exclusively. So, what can be done to change that? It's basically a PR/evangelism problem, which is well outside my area of expertise. Any suggestions? sherm-- Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net Sherm et al., I know that a great deal of Bioinformatics people also use Perl ... and Macs! If some of the framework could be shown how it would be good for these people to use Camelbones, maybe that would help with takeup. I tend to just use the Tk library for all my UI stuff (or web browser) and don't worry about Cocoa at all. I agree that restricting Perl to use in sysadmin work, or CGI development, is unfortunate. I use if for everything ... Good luck with the search for work! I'm happy to host downloads, etc. from any of my servers. Best wishes, John. >>> Why did the OS X loving bit of >>> the perl community sit by and let PyObjC become the default bridge. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net > Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net Dr. John G. Keating Department of Computer Science National University of Ireland, Maynooth Maynooth, Co. Kildare, IRELAND. Email: john.keating@nuim.ie Tel: +353 1 708 3854 FAX: +353 1 708 3848 ----- Manny: Let's paaarrrtt ... Bernard: Don't you dare use the word party as a verb in this shop .... >there's a very widespread misconception that Perl is useful for >system admins, web developers, and little else. One thing I find [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >So, what can be done to change that?... I certainly don't know -- I'm a physician, not a professional programmer, but I have used many scripts, including scripts written in Perl, to increase my office productivity and to make throughput easier. I also use it in non-office matters as my tool of choice whenever graphic files are involved. In general, I find Perl to be very useful when I'm dealing with data that is mostly in the form of strings, which happens for me in a number of circumstances. HTH, Jonathan Tue, May 08, 2007 at 05:25:35PM -0400: Sherm Pendley mangled some bits into this alignment: > >> Why did the OS X loving bit of > >>the perl community sit by and let PyObjC become the default bridge. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > So, what can be done to change that? It's basically a PR/evangelism > problem, which is well outside my area of expertise. Any suggestions? One or two cool apps will help. Coda is an excellent example of creating a buzz amongst "creatives" and "developers." I also think Perl 6 is going to be really, really amazing but that may not directly aid CB, maybe present it with its own set of problems. But it would be pretty cool if CB had Perl 6 support and people could build OS X apps in Perl 6 with Cocoa bindings, w00t. Also the chattering classes, that is to say bloggers, of which I am an ignominious member, need to promote CB, perl, and Mac OS X development in general since OS X is a great platform for development and perl is a great language and CB is the perfect tool, etc. Jeremiah, >One or two cool apps will help. To me, this seems the crucial thing to help. I know for myself, CamelBones let me build my own photo organizer (kind of like iPhoto but without the editing and with organising features directly related to how I store and organise and upload my photos). I could never have written thins app with any normal language (or more accurately, it would have taken far too long to be worthwhile doing). Unfortunately, the benefit is how much it is customized to my needs which makes it pretty much useless as even an example for CamelBones. Perhaps folks have some ideas for apps that could be written in CamelBones? Something that would presumably use some of the vast CPAN facilities to make something cool with minimal programming effort. Especially with the OpenGL stuff, I'm tempted to have a go at writing a game in CamelBones/OpenGL. I'm not sure if the license agreements let you write a commercial program using these things though. I think they do (CamelBones is LGPL and OpenGL looks to be fairly permissive, and most Perl stuff is Artistic License which is very permissive). If I ever did, I'd certainly be funneling some portion to support CamelBones. Peter. SignatureInterarchy was just acquired by Nolobe Pty Ltd <http://nolobe.com/> Press release for details <http://www.stairways.com/press/2007-02-01> <http://www.stairways.com/> <http://download.stairways.com/> > Perhaps folks have some ideas for apps that could be written in CamelBones? > Something that would presumably use some of the vast CPAN facilities to make > something cool with minimal programming effort. I've been thinking that a GUI for ExifTool would be pretty nifty. <http://search.cpan.org/dist/Image-ExifTool/> Something along the lines of GUI version of MediaInfo <http://mediainfo.sourceforge.net/en> -Steve SignatureSteve Axthelm steveax@pobox.com > Unfortunately, the benefit is how much it is customized to my needs > which makes it pretty much useless as even an example for CamelBones. I get the impression that your app isn't the only one. As you probably know, I've wondered aloud from time to time if anyone is using CamelBones; invariably, I've gotten an inbox full of responses like yours: Yes, I'm using it for custom bespoke apps, but I haven't released anything to the public. > Especially with the OpenGL stuff, I'm tempted to have a go at > writing a game in CamelBones/OpenGL. I'm not sure if the license [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > very permissive). If I ever did, I'd certainly be funneling some > portion to support CamelBones. It's certainly worth mentioning then, that the CamelBones license will be changing. Apple asked about the possibility of an BSD-style or Artistic license, and I'd been thinking of it for quite a long time anyway. Most of the modules in the *Kit PARS are licensed under the same terms as Perl itself, and having pieces of the distribution licensed differently is confusing. So, the next version - 1.2 release, preceded by 1.1.x betas - will also be licensed under the same terms: GPL or Artistic, your choice. I wouldn't have had a problem with a commercial program using CB anyway, even before the license change - the LGPL only requires that the framework can be easily replaced with a custom version, and the structure of an .app bundle makes that a trivial task. Also, I've been looking at PyGame, and watching how much enthusiasm it helps generate around Python. Games could definitely be a "killer app" area here. sherm-- Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net > So, the next version - 1.2 release, preceded by 1.1.x betas - will > also be licensed under the same terms: GPL or Artistic, your choice. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it helps generate around Python. Games could definitely be a "killer > app" area here. If you are looking for an app that would get widely used, I've got an idea that's been on the top of my 'when I have time to program' list for the past ~2 years... Macs desperately _need_ a an app to manage third-party software updates. Something that you could run periodically to keep software up to date, avoiding having every seprate program connect to the internet on startup and check for itself. (Invariably the wrong time to do an update...) My basic thought is to create a folder in the 'Application Support' directory where apps can drop an XML file with their current version, a link to where update files can be found, and their public key of some sort. The update file would just be another XML file with the current version, and some information on paid/nonpaid, license changes, what's updated, etc. Both the update file and the program update itself would be signed by the company, and the updater app doesn't accept any update that doesn't have a valid signature. The program should either be runnable manually or on schedule(s), where it checks to see if the programs registered with it (by them dropping the file in the 'Application Support' subfolder) need updating. Then it can download, install, or just notify the user. Using CPAN, this should be a fairly quick project, I think. But it would take me a few days just get back up to speed enough on Cocoa to start it, and I have _no_ spare time. (I literally don't even have a single vacation day this year.) I've got the design in my head, but it could be ages before I get a chance to write it. I'd love to pay someone to do it, but... Well, I just donated all my spare change to Sherm already. ;) I _do_ have time to discuss though, if people want info. (I can do that at work, where I have little to do. But I can't program outside projects there.) Anyway, if people are looking for a 'killer app', I think this could generate a lot of interest if done well. And, as long as the end result is free and open-source (for this, I care that people can use it) I don't care who programs it. If no one else is interested, I'll probably do it eventually, but it'll be years before I have a chance... Daniel T. Staal --------------------------------------------------------------- This email copyright the author. Unless otherwise noted, you are expressly allowed to retransmit, quote, or otherwise use the contents for non-commercial purposes. This copyright will expire 5 years after the author's death, or in 30 years, whichever is longer, unless such a period is in excess of local copyright law. --------------------------------------------------------------- > Macs desperately _need_ a an app to manage third-party software > updates. > Something that you could run periodically to keep software up to date, > avoiding having every seprate program connect to the internet on > startup > and check for itself. A good idea. But <http://metaquark.de/appfresh/> may have beat you to it. :-) SignatureChris Devers >Perhaps folks have some ideas for apps that could be written in >CamelBones? Something that would presumably use some of the vast CPAN >facilities to make something cool with minimal programming effort. Mine would not be as flashy as games, but I'm working toward two related CB goals: - a GUI for a bunch of data-handling and text processing stuff that I now do in Perl using cli or BBEdit worksheets and then import to Filemaker for some outputs and also for lookups and data input by non-technical users; and - a spreadsheet GUI that is nothing but a means of accessing and displaying the cells of a table, no built-in functions, with an API capable of accepting libraries of whatever Perl code I need to use (math, text, network) for operations by cell, row, column, sub-table. Adelante! - Bruce __bruce__van_allen__santa_cruz__ca__ > It's not just in Mac circles either - there's a very widespread > misconception that Perl is useful for system admins, web developers, > and little else. One thing I find personally frustrating is the > corollary, that Perl *programmers* must be admins or web devs. I'm a "retired" mathematician, myself. I can't even administer my own (iMac) system, but I use Perl constantly. I am not particularly interested in Camel Bones, but I do use the ShuX application quite often. You had something to do with that didn't you, Sherm? I believe I got it from your site. Regards, Vic Signature*---* mailto:vic@norton.name | Victor Thane Norton, Jr. | Mathematician and Motorcyclist | Bowling Green, OH 43402-2223, USA | Phone: 419-353-3399 *---* http://vic.norton.name >> It's not just in Mac circles either - there's a very widespread >> misconception that Perl is useful for system admins, web developers, >> and little else. One thing I find personally frustrating is the >> corollary, that Perl *programmers* must be admins or web devs. > > I'm a "retired" mathematician, myself. Is that something you can *really* retire from? Or are you doing the same thing you've always done, only now without bosses and schedules to distract you? :-) > I can't even administer my own (iMac) system, but I use Perl > constantly. I am not particularly interested in Camel Bones, but I > do use the ShuX application quite often. You had something to do > with that didn't you, Sherm? I believe I got it from your site. Yes, ShuX was the first CamelBones app. When I switched to Mac OS X, I found that a couple of years of using MacPerl and Shuck had thoroughly spoiled me for readable docs. I simply could not stand going back to reading them in fixed-pitch Monaco again. I had a little sign over my monitor for a while that said "Times or Bust." :-) Funny thing is, I like Monaco for command-line work, and for editing text in BBEdit. It's only for reading docs that it really bothers my eyes. > | Mathematician and Motorcyclist Have you seen the new Norton motorcycles? The Commando is *sweet*! :-) sherm-- Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net >>| Mathematician and Motorcyclist > >Have you seen the new Norton motorcycles? The Commando is *sweet*! :-) Please keep the non-Mac/Perl tech porn drooling to a minimum, please. And good luck with the grant, Sherm. -jeff I need donations to CamelBones. Or web hosting customers. Or consulting clients. Or a plain old-fashioned job. Or something - and I need it soon. Hi Sherm, I have some work for you. I use ruby and the mechanize object to pull down pages off the web and parse them. There is a lot of mystery involved with it, especially in debugging. I am flying blind and can't see what I am getting back. Especially logging in and redirection. The documentation is very light. I would be willing to pay you $700 for an ebook 10 pages or so, that describes how to set up an environment for debugging mech issues and stepwise shows ways to solve them. You would be free to sell the ebook to others as well. Joe Alotta > I need donations to CamelBones. Or web hosting customers. Or > consulting clients. Or a plain old-fashioned job. Or something - and > I need it soon. Have you considered a Perl Foundation Grant? Surely this is more worthy than some of the other grants they've done. SignatureChris Nandor pudge@pobox.com http://pudge.net/ Open Source Technology Group pudge@ostg.com http://ostg.com/ > > I need donations to CamelBones. Or web hosting customers. Or > > consulting clients. Or a plain old-fashioned job. Or something - and > > I need it soon. > > Have you considered a Perl Foundation Grant? Surely this is more worthy > than some of the other grants they've done. Seconded, FWIW. Tim. >> I need donations to CamelBones. Or web hosting customers. Or >> consulting clients. Or a plain old-fashioned job. Or something - and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > worthy > than some of the other grants they've done. I've considered it, but one of the requirements is that the proposed project benefits a "large segment" of the Perl community. Honestly, I've never figured CamelBones would meet that requirement - Mac users are a pretty small niche, Cocoa developers a small niche within that, and Cocoa/Perl developers a small niche within that. On the other hand, it appears that quite a few of Perl's "heavy hitters" are using Macs. And it certainly couldn't hurt to ask. So I'll write up a proposal for this round, and see what happens. sherm-- Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net >>> I need donations to CamelBones. Or web hosting customers. Or >>> consulting clients. Or a plain old-fashioned job. Or something - and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > pretty small niche, Cocoa developers a small niche within that, and > Cocoa/Perl developers a small niche within that. Try it anyway! If you don't ask, the answer is always "no". : ) Robert Sun, May 06, 2007 at 05:07:46PM -0400: Sherm Pendley mangled some bits into this alignment: > On May 6, 2007, at 3:25 PM, Alex Robinson wrote: > > >I wish even more that Apple had picked you up and made CamelBones a > >first class citizen. > > Good news: That may still happen. Good news indeed. Before I go any further I ought to introduce myself since I am new to the list. My name is Jeremiah Foster and I'm a perl hacker and OS X softie - perfect for this list eh? =) > >So, why has Apple ignored CamelBones? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I blame the CamelBones management - i.e. myself. Great to see such candor from a developer, it is commendable. I blog and write a bit on O'Reilly's web site, maybe I can work out a blog posting about CamelBones? Hopefully that would add traffic/users/donations which would be a good thing. Let me know if you are interested sherm. I am afraid I cannot offer financial support at this time since I am also not gainfully employed in a permanent fashion, just some writing and such, but if I can help in other ways I would love to. Perhaps you can post a wish list to this mailing list so that those who can hack, provide bandwidth, etc. can contribute if that is useful to you. In any case, I am very interested in perl, OS X, and CamelBones and am willing to use my little soap box to further their vitality. Regards, Jeremiah |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.