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Mac Forum / General / Networking / October 2005Apple Mail
A rather junior question but it's been bugging me for too long. I'm using Apple mail Version 2.0.3 (734) and can't seem to turn off the html appearance when I reply to mail messages. I want to show > instead of lines to reply text and I just can't seem to find out how. Most mail allows this and I'l assume this one does too?  SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > A rather junior question but it's been bugging me for too long. I'm > using Apple mail Version 2.0.3 (734) and can't seem to turn off the > html appearance when I reply to mail messages. I want to show > > instead of lines to reply text and I just can't seem to find out how. > Most mail allows this and I'l assume this one does too? So far as I know, it doesn't allow you to do that. But I find that editing the replies is easier with those bars than with the ">" indicators. And if he receiving system can't display the bars, it's automatically changed to ">". The current version of mail (in Tiger) has some bugs that the previous versions did not have (e.g., extra line feed at the end of each paragraph in the quoted material) that makes editing a bit more convoluted than in previous versions, but it's still easier than with the carets. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. > So far as I know, it doesn't allow you to do that. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > convoluted than in previous versions, but it's still easier than with > the carets. If the program doesn't allow for this then ok, I guess I'll live with it. But I am glad you didn't suggest using something else like Eudora as i've already gone that route in the past and wasn't happy with it. And of course Outlook isn't available for OS-X (yet) but that isn't too big of deal either :-) Thanks... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > If the program doesn't allow for this then ok, I guess I'll live > with it. But I am glad you didn't suggest using something else like > Eudora as i've already gone that route in the past and wasn't happy > with it. And of course Outlook isn't available for OS-X (yet) but > that isn't too big of deal either :-) Outlook will never be available for the Mac. MS does have a program which does most of what Outlook does (and much more than Outlook Express did) called Entourage. It's available as part of MS Office. I, personally, find Apple's Mail to be adequate most of the time, though I do sometimes use Thunderbird. Thunderbird is the standalone mail client from out of the Mozilla project. If you can't get comfortable with Mail, you might want to try that. SignaturePlain Bread alone for e-mail, thanks. The rest gets trashed. No HTML in E-Mail! -- http://www.expita.com/nomime.html Are you posting responses that are easy for others to follow? http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting > Outlook will never be available for the Mac. MS does have a > program which does most of what Outlook does (and much more [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If you can't get comfortable with Mail, you might want to > try that. I've tried Thunderbird for a bit and well, it just seems so clumsy. Actually, the Apple mail is pretty good yet I think that the formatting issue confuses people on the other end. Tom H just posted a suggestion regarding this so I'll look into that. Still not sure what I'll do, maybe keep it or try Thunderbird again. Firefox seems to have gone over big so I guess they deserve another look... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > > A rather junior question but it's been bugging me for too long. I'm > > using Apple mail Version 2.0.3 (734) and can't seem to turn off the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the ">" indicators. And if he receiving system can't display the bars, > it's automatically changed to ">". The colored vertical bars are just Mail's way of displaying the ">" quote indicators. If your message is plain-text (either "Format" menu --> "Make Plain Text" for one message or Preferences --> Composing --> Message Format, if you want it to apply to all messages) then you're actually dealing with the familiar ">" characters even if Mail doesn't show them that way. SignatureTom "Tom" Harrington Macaroni, Automated System Maintenance for Mac OS X. Version 2.0: Delocalize, Repair Permissions, lots more. See http://www.atomicbird.com/ > The colored vertical bars are just Mail's way of displaying the ">" > quote indicators. If your message is plain-text (either "Format" menu > --> "Make Plain Text" for one message or Preferences --> Composing --> > Message Format, if you want it to apply to all messages) then you're > actually dealing with the familiar ">" characters even if Mail doesn't > show them that way. Hmmm, I've checked the composing and it seems to be set to plain text under composing. Is there some other place I'm missing? SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > > The colored vertical bars are just Mail's way of displaying the ">" > > quote indicators. If your message is plain-text (either "Format" menu [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Hmmm, I've checked the composing and it seems to be set to plain text under > composing. Is there some other place I'm missing? No, you're not missing anything. Like he said, even though it displays vertical bars, the actual message contains ">" characters. If you want to see them as they really are, I think you need to cut and paste into a plain text editor. SignatureBarry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu Arlington, MA *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me *** > No, you're not missing anything. Like he said, even though it > displays vertical bars, the actual message contains ">" characters. > > If you want to see them as they really are, I think you need to cut > and paste into a plain text editor. Actually, if you do that, the quote marks are stripped. The only way I've found that they remain as carets is if you paste or type them in. You can test this by typing text in BBEdit or Text Wrangler, and choosing Increase Quote Level, and then pasting the text into an outgoing message. I don't know why it doesn't convert those quote characters. It doesn't convert them in incoming mail either. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. >> No, you're not missing anything. Like he said, even though it >> displays vertical bars, the actual message contains ">" characters. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I don't know why it doesn't convert those quote characters. It doesn't > convert them in incoming mail either. Yeah, you're right. I've checked it on another machine by playing tag and the strips stay on the other end. Another lady has asked me why I've got my mail set like that and I explained that's the way Mac Mail is, so at least she understands. But for many I'm sure they're wondering what the heck is going on :-) Odd that they'd skip that feature as it's sort of an industry standard... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > Odd that they'd skip that feature as it's sort of an industry standard... Skip which feature? SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. >> Odd that they'd skip that feature as it's sort of an industry standard... > > Skip which feature? Most programs allow you to chose what you want for threaded msgs and most us the > but some people have used bullits which don't really have the same effect imho of course... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > >> Odd that they'd skip that feature as it's sort of an industry > >> standard... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > most us the > but some people have used bullits which don't really > have the same effect imho of course... I still don't follow what you mean. The quote character at the beginning of the line has nothing to do with threading. If you send mail to someone whose mail reader doesn't know about the vertical bar for quoting, that reader will display the ">" character at the beginning of each line of quoted text. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. > I still don't follow what you mean. The quote character at the > beginning of the line has nothing to do with threading. Right, it doesn't affect the threading, it's just the appearance is different than what others use. > If you send mail to someone whose mail reader doesn't know about the > vertical bar for quoting, that reader will display the ">" character at > the beginning of each line of quoted text. I've been playing mail tag with someone using Thunderbird. When I reply to them, the lines appear on my screen of course, yet they are there on hers too. When she replies to me, it's converted back to > on her end, and when I receive the mail it's back to the lines again. I reply back and the lines are all back to her msg. With the colors turned off or on, the lines are still there. It's like it's locked into an html format but I'm not sure that's actually the case. SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > > The colored vertical bars are just Mail's way of displaying the ">" > > quote indicators. If your message is plain-text (either "Format" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Hmmm, I've checked the composing and it seems to be set to plain text > under composing. Is there some other place I'm missing? Mail.app displays it with that vertical bar regardless of whether composing is set to rich Text or HTML. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. >> Hmmm, I've checked the composing and it seems to be set to plain text >> under composing. Is there some other place I'm missing? > > Mail.app displays it with that vertical bar regardless of whether > composing is set to rich Text or HTML. I think I'll give Thunderbird another try. I did use it once and forget what the problem was but I dumped it. Of course I never liked Hogwasher the first time I tried it either but eventually purchased the program and that's all I use now for newsgroups... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > > Mail.app displays it with that vertical bar regardless of whether > > composing is set to rich Text or HTML. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > first time I tried it either but eventually purchased the program and that's > all I use now for newsgroups... I'm curious: What don't you like about that vertical bar paradigm? SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. >>> Mail.app displays it with that vertical bar regardless of whether >>> composing is set to rich Text or HTML. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I'm curious: What don't you like about that vertical bar paradigm? I just doesn't seem to fit into the meaning of the message. A threaded reply expects that something signals which is threaded and the lines don't give that appearance. Just my opinion of course but just think if a newsreader used that format, it would look confusing, no? SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > I just doesn't seem to fit into the meaning of the message. A > threaded reply expects that something signals which is threaded and > the lines don't give that appearance. Just my opinion of course but > just think if a newsreader used that format, it would look confusing, > no? There is a vertical bar for each level of quote, just as there is a ">" for each level of quote in mailers and newsreaders that do not know about vertical bars. But again, the quote marks have nothing to do with threading, just with quoted text in replies. You can have quoted text in non-threaded mail, and you can have threads without quotes. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. > But again, the quote marks have nothing to do with threading, just with > quoted text in replies. You can have quoted text in non-threaded mail, > and you can have threads without quotes. I have a sneaking suspicion that Ruddell has some alternate definition of "threaded" in mind, one in which quoting is analagous to threading, not how messages are organized in one's mailbox. What we should be discussing is the "format=flowed" method of displaying text: http://www.joeclark.org/ffaq.html SignatureMike Rosenberg <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart Toyota Prius fans: Check out alt.autos.toyota.prius >> But again, the quote marks have nothing to do with threading, just with >> quoted text in replies. You can have quoted text in non-threaded mail, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of "threaded" in mind, one in which quoting is analagous to threading, > not how messages are organized in one's mailbox. Correct. It's not the threading itself which I was referring to, it's the display at how it's shown. The lines rather than the > character. I just re-read my original post and thought that I had made that as my question and not that threading was the problem? > What we should be discussing is the "format=flowed" method of displaying > text: > > http://www.joeclark.org/ffaq.html That pretty much answers the question as Eudora allows one to turn it off. No mention as to how to disable in Mac Mail and if it can't be done, maybe it will be in the future? SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > > I have a sneaking suspicion that Ruddell has some alternate definition > > of "threaded" in mind, one in which quoting is analagous to threading, > > not how messages are organized in one's mailbox. > > Correct. It's not the threading itself which I was referring to, it's the > display at how it's shown. Okay, you're talking about _quoting_. Threading is how all the different messages with the same subject line are grouped together in the mailbox. Quoting is the display of text from previous messages. > > What we should be discussing is the "format=flowed" method of displaying > > text: > > > > http://www.joeclark.org/ffaq.html > > That pretty much answers the question as Eudora allows one to turn it off. True, but it also explains why f=f is so desirable. It's really nice to be able to edit quoted text and have it automatically flow to create proper lines. > No mention as to how to disable in Mac Mail and if it can't be done, maybe > it will be in the future? It can't be done in Mail and, frankly, it's not something I see Apple implementing. That's just my opinion, of course. SignatureMike Rosenberg <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart Toyota Prius fans: Check out alt.autos.toyota.prius >>> I have a sneaking suspicion that Ruddell has some alternate definition >>> of "threaded" in mind, one in which quoting is analagous to threading, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > different messages with the same subject line are grouped together in > the mailbox. Quoting is the display of text from previous messages. Yes, i used reply which I thought would pretty much mean the same thing. No problem, at least you get my drift. Threading isn't an issue to me with mail as I keep them in order of date rather than thread each one. Just my preference and I know others have their own :-) >>> What we should be discussing is the "format=flowed" method of displaying >>> text: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > be able to edit quoted text and have it automatically flow to create > proper lines. Advantages, disadvantages, boils down to preference again. I think for many people though, who use the > symbol in quotes, it makes it less confusing. I've had people ask me about it and that's why I asked in here if the lines can be turned off. I don't communicate with cell phones but if that happens in the future, maybe it would be the route to take? > >> No mention as to how to disable in Mac Mail and if it can't be done, maybe >> it will be in the future? > > It can't be done in Mail and, frankly, it's not something I see Apple > implementing. That's just my opinion, of course. Of course. And I think you're probably correct that Apple has not intentions of doing because they would have done it in the first place if it was a consideration. Nothing new that's for sure. Don't get me wrong, I'm sticking with my Macs as I have for quite a few years now and don't see any return to Windows. Yet I do admit, lately there's been a few things about OS-X which haven't really fallen into my liking but there are always ways around it without going completely mad and switching systems... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > There is a vertical bar for each level of quote, just as there is a ">" > for each level of quote in mailers and newsreaders that do not know [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > quoted text in replies. You can have quoted text in non-threaded mail, > and you can have threads without quotes. I'd like to replace the lines with something else for quoted text and I don't think this mail is going to allow such a move... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply >>> Mail.app displays it with that vertical bar regardless of whether >>> composing is set to rich Text or HTML. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I'm curious: What don't you like about that vertical bar paradigm? It doesn't appear that way when forwarded to Windows users. SignatureThank you and have a nice day. > > I'm curious: What don't you like about that vertical bar paradigm? > > It doesn't appear that way when forwarded to Windows users. The way it looks is dependent on the email program, not the operating system. But how does it look to users of the windows email program or programs you've seen it on? SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. >>> I'm curious: What don't you like about that vertical bar paradigm? >> >> It doesn't appear that way when forwarded to Windows users. > > The way it looks is dependent on the email program, not the operating system. Not it's a caret. > But how does it look to users of the windows email program or programs > you've seen it on? Outlook indents them. It's not great, but it's not evil either. SignatureThank you and have a nice day. > > But how does it look to users of the windows email program or > > programs you've seen it on? > > Outlook indents them. It's not great, but it's not evil either. Well, that's because Outlook does things its own way. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. > > I'm curious: What don't you like about that vertical bar paradigm? > > It doesn't appear that way when forwarded to Windows users. Oh, that depends entirely on the mail client they're using. Now, I'm guessing that Outlook Express, which most of them are using, doesn't support it, but if they were to use, say, Eudora, they'd see the vertical bar. But my question is why does that matter to you anyway? So you see the vertical bar, they see the quote symbols instead, what does it matter? SignatureMike Rosenberg <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart Toyota Prius fans: Check out alt.autos.toyota.prius >>> I'm curious: What don't you like about that vertical bar paradigm? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > So you see the vertical bar, they see the quote symbols instead, what > does it matter? It's just a consistent way of sending things. Some people are confused by it and to be honest, I'd rather have a mail client that would include the option to choose what you want to... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > It's just a consistent way of sending things. Some people are > confused by it and to be honest, I'd rather have a mail client that > would include the option to choose what you want to... How are other people confused by the vertical bars on your system? Are they sharing your computer? If their email software uses vertical bars, even if you used the caret, they would still see the vertical bars. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. >> It's just a consistent way of sending things. Some people are >> confused by it and to be honest, I'd rather have a mail client that >> would include the option to choose what you want to... > > How are other people confused by the vertical bars on your system? Are > they sharing your computer? LOL. I can share a lot of things but my computer isn't one of them :-) > If their email software uses vertical bars, even if you used the caret, > they would still see the vertical bars. That's the issue I'm dealing with. Most mail doesn't use the bars and that is where the confusion comes from. The vertical bars isn't the standard for most mail and I've never seen it in a newsreader ever. But when I reply to someone who's not got it (which is more often than not), they see the bars and don't understand why... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > > If their email software uses vertical bars, even if you used the > > caret, they would still see the vertical bars. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ever. But when I reply to someone who's not got it (which is more > often than not), they see the bars and don't understand why... The point is that they will see the bars whether you are using mail (which uses bars) or something that uses carets. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. > > > If their email software uses vertical bars, even if you used the > > > caret, they would still see the vertical bars. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The point is that they will see the bars whether you are using mail > (which uses bars) or something that uses carets. And to prove it to myself, I mailed that message to myself, and I saw bars, not carets, in the message I received. I'm copying this message to you in email; you'll see carets in the newsgroup and vertical bars in your email. The bottom line is that regardless of whether the sender's email program uses bars or carets, the receiver will see whichever his (or her) email program uses. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. [Snipped Text] > > The point is that they will see the bars whether you are using mail > > (which uses bars) or something that uses carets. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > uses bars or carets, the receiver will see whichever his (or her) email > program uses. That is correct, the mail is always send as a plain Email, regardless of how you sent it, the quotations are always a '> ' in the actual text. The mail client then interprets them as either a quoting bar or a standard quoting character, but the content of the message is not changed. SignatureAndy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS Honda Civic: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor) http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/thehewitts2/index.htm (updated Aug 28 2005) > [Snipped Text] > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > standard quoting character, but the content of the message is not > changed. Nope. That's not what's happening. If it was, this wouldn't have even come up because nobody would have questioned what I was sending. When I send a reply to someone using Mac Mail Version 2.0.3 (734), they receive/view with the bars even when their program doesn't have that setting. So the bars are overriding the carets > and that's where the problem is. When someone replies to me, the message they open for that reply then the bars are gone and the > are back which is fine for replying, but simply reading the msg, it's the bars... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply [Snipped Text] > Nope. That's not what's happening. If it was, this wouldn't have even come > up because nobody would have questioned what I was sending. When I send a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bars are gone and the > are back which is fine for replying, but simply > reading the msg, it's the bars... Hmmm, can you get to read the source of the message? Perhaps see what's there. SignatureAndy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS Honda Civic: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor) http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/thehewitts2/index.htm (updated Aug 28 2005) > > [Snipped Text] > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > the bars even when their program doesn't have that setting. So the bars are > overriding the carets > and that's where the problem is. Hmmm, when I reply to someone, quoting part of the message, I see the bars. However, it I go the the Sent folder, select the message, save it, and open the saved message with a text editor, the bars have been replaced by ">" symbols. > When someone replies to me, the message they open for that reply then the > bars are gone and the > are back which is fine for replying, but simply > reading the msg, it's the bars... SignatureTom Stiller PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3 7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF > Hmmm, when I reply to someone, quoting part of the message, I see the > bars. However, it I go the the Sent folder, select the message, save > it, and open the saved message with a text editor, the bars have been > replaced by ">" symbols. I really don't understand why Apple would simply assume that making the one format would be good for all. Seems they're taking personal preference out of the system rather than adding more to it. One other thought has crossed my mind during all this. If I install another mail client, can I uninstall the Mac Mail without affecting the OS? And would this apply to Safari as well? I mean, if I'm not going to use them, why keep them around. But they might be integrated into the system and have to stay... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > > Hmmm, when I reply to someone, quoting part of the message, I see > > the bars. However, it I go the the Sent folder, select the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the one format would be good for all. Seems they're taking personal > preference out of the system rather than adding more to it. You Still Don't Get It. The appearance, or not, of the bars on other systems has nothing to do with Apple mail. If you change your email program, it's not going to change anything that the other persons see on their system. The only way to effect a change is to change the quote character from the caret to something else--and since the caret is the industry standard, it would not be wise to change it, even if you could. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. >>> Hmmm, when I reply to someone, quoting part of the message, I see >>> the bars. However, it I go the the Sent folder, select the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > program, it's not going to change anything that the other persons see on > their system. The bars are showing up on other email which doesn't have that selected as their preference because it's not available. What's there to get? The bars originate from Apple mail the sender, not the receiver. If they didn't go out that way, they wouldn't receive them that way. > The only way to effect a change is to change the quote character from > the caret to something else--and since the caret is the industry > standard, it would not be wise to change it, even if you could. That's correct. The caret is the industry standard but not with Apple and that is where the problem lies. I think my only option is to get another mail client because this one simply doesn't work to my satisfaction... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > I think my only option is to get another > mail client because this one simply doesn't work to my satisfaction... Well, yes, absolutely, if you don't like the way one program, of _any_ type, works, use another. You're not hurting for alternative mail clients. SignatureMike Rosenberg <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart Toyota Prius fans: Check out alt.autos.toyota.prius >> I think my only option is to get another >> mail client because this one simply doesn't work to my satisfaction... > > Well, yes, absolutely, if you don't like the way one program, of _any_ > type, works, use another. You're not hurting for alternative mail > clients. Obviously. And there's really nothing else to say :-) SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > The bars are showing up on other email which doesn't have that > selected as their preference because it's not available. What's > there to get? The bars originate from Apple mail the sender, not the > receiver. If they didn't go out that way, they wouldn't receive > them that way. The other email programs don't have the preference on how to set the display, so that's Apple's fault? For the zillionth time, Dennis, the receiving email program determines how to display the quotes; it is independent of the sending program. If the receiving program displays quotes as vertical bars, it will display them as vertical bars, even though the quote characters themselves are carets. > > The only way to effect a change is to change the quote character > > from the caret to something else--and since the caret is the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That's correct. The caret is the industry standard but not with > Apple and that is where the problem lies. It *is* the standard with Apple; however, Apple's mail as well as the email program your correspondent uses displays it as vertical bars. I proved that to you by sending you mail from the news browser. The mail showed up with vertical bars, even though it was sent with the carets. And if you send your correspondents quoted mail from your news browser, it will show up on their machines with vertical bars too. Try the experiment that Mike Rosenberg suggested. Take your outgoing mail, with the vertical bars, and save it to disk as plain text, then open that text file in a text editor. Each quoted line will start with one or more carets, depending on the level of quotes. > I think my only option is to get another mail client because this one > simply doesn't work to my satisfaction... And nothing will change because the problem is not with your mail client. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. >> The bars are showing up on other email which doesn't have that >> selected as their preference because it's not available. What's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The other email programs don't have the preference on how to set the > display, so that's Apple's fault? Sure it is. If they had the option to turn the bars off and not use them, then they wouldn't be sent. They seem to figure that because it's their choice of viewing, that it's going to be ok with everyone. Apple put them in without any thoughts that maybe someone might not want them. The receiving client only gets what's sent to it. > For the zillionth time, Dennis, the receiving email program determines > how to display the quotes; it is independent of the sending program. > If the receiving program displays quotes as vertical bars, it will > display them as vertical bars, even though the quote characters > themselves are carets. Look, you seem to be missing what I'm saying all together. I don't want the damn things there and yes, you sent me an email which contains the bars. I already knew that which is why I asked if they could be removed. >>> The only way to effect a change is to change the quote character >>> from the caret to something else--and since the caret is the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It *is* the standard with Apple; however, Apple's mail as well as the > email program your correspondent uses displays it as vertical bars. How can the industry be standard with the > and Apple using something else. > I > proved that to you by sending you mail from the news browser. The mail > showed up with vertical bars, even though it was sent with the carets. > And if you send your correspondents quoted mail from your news browser, > it will show up on their machines with vertical bars too. Like I said, the problem is the bars, not the lack of them. If they weren't present I wouldn't have even mentioned this. > Try the experiment that Mike Rosenberg suggested. Take your outgoing > mail, with the vertical bars, and save it to disk as plain text, then [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And nothing will change because the problem is not with your mail client. The problem is 100% with my mail client. It doesn't provide the option to turn the bars off. Which is why I'm dumping the damn thing because this isn't worth talking about any longer. They made a mail program to their satisfaction, not mine... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > > The other email programs don't have the preference on how to set > > the display, so that's Apple's fault? > > Sure it is. If they had the option to turn the bars off and not use > them, then they wouldn't be sent. THEY AREN'T SENT!!!!! mail.app sends carets, not vertical bars. The receiving mail displays those carets as vertical bars. > They seem to figure that because it's their choice of viewing, that > it's going to be ok with everyone. Apple put them in without any > thoughts that maybe someone might not want them. The receiving > client only gets what's sent to it. Either you have no idea of what you're talking about or you're a very, very, good troll. > Look, you seem to be missing what I'm saying all together. I understand that you are saying, and you are just plain wrong. > I don't want the damn things there and yes, you sent me an email > which contains the bars. I already knew that which is why I asked > if they could be removed. No, I sent the mail from this news reader, MT NewsWatcher 3.4, which does not have the capability of sending vertical bars. The copy of the mail that appeared in the newsgroup has carets, and the copy you received in mail.app has carets, but mail displays those carets as vertical bars. > > It *is* the standard with Apple; however, Apple's mail as well as > > the email program your correspondent uses displays it as vertical > > bars. > > How can the industry be standard with the > and Apple using something > else. APPLE ISN'T USING SOMETHING ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > The problem is 100% with my mail client. It doesn't provide the > option to turn the bars off. Which is why I'm dumping the damn thing > because this isn't worth talking about any longer. They made a mail > program to their satisfaction, not mine... The problem is 100% with you; your mind is made up and you aren't interested in the facts. Experiments have been tried, and you ignore the evidence; other experiments have been suggested, and you refuse to try them. I don't know whether you are just plain pig headed or a troll, and I don't care which. You came here ostensibly for help, but refuse all the help offered. I'm through with you. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. >>> The other email programs don't have the preference on how to set >>> the display, so that's Apple's fault? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > THEY AREN'T SENT!!!!! mail.app sends carets, not vertical bars. The > receiving mail displays those carets as vertical bars. They aren't originating from the Mac Mail? I don't see any carets in this mail program and I don't see where to turn the bars off. I do see where I can turn the color for the bars off/on but that's about it. The receiving mail program isn't displaying bars because they're set that way, they receive them because they originate from this end that way. >> They seem to figure that because it's their choice of viewing, that >> it's going to be ok with everyone. Apple put them in without any [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Either you have no idea of what you're talking about or you're a very, > very, good troll. And I think you must be so convinced of yourself that everything Apple does is great without even looking at the program. Cripes, if questioning the Mac makes me a troll then fine, filter me out because you're no help anyway. I asked a very simple question at the beginning of this thread and you've done nothing but continue on with saying the bars are there and that is what I've been saying from the start. The bars are the problem, the Mac application puts them there. >> Look, you seem to be missing what I'm saying all together. > > I understand that you are saying, and you are just plain wrong. I sent you an email. You received it showing the bars. That is how Mac mail operates. What is incorrect about that? >> I don't want the damn things there and yes, you sent me an email >> which contains the bars. I already knew that which is why I asked [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > received in mail.app has carets, but mail displays those carets as > vertical bars. Right, the Mac mail displays them as bars and so does other mail applications when I send replies to them too... >>> It *is* the standard with Apple; however, Apple's mail as well as >>> the email program your correspondent uses displays it as vertical [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > APPLE ISN'T USING SOMETHING ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Apple uses the vertical bars. That is something else when others use carets. >> The problem is 100% with my mail client. It doesn't provide the >> option to turn the bars off. Which is why I'm dumping the damn thing [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > don't care which. You came here ostensibly for help, but refuse all the > help offered. I'm through with you. That would suit me just fine. You didn't offer help, you simply stated the the Mac mail is correct and that wasn't what I was looking for. Apple doesn't give the option to turn it off and I'll use something else. Thanks for your time... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > Apple uses the vertical bars. That is something else when others use > carets. Again, you really need to reread what I posted about format=flowed to understand that it's really not about bars or carets at all: http://www.joeclark.org/ffaq.html This page, as I've noted in another post, dates from May, 2000, and f=f was already the default in Eudora by then. Now, what I didn't mention is that I was using Eudora as my mail client back then and absolutely hated f=f when it made its appearance. I even turned it off for a while, but then I kept reading about its merits in a Eudora newsgroup and turned it back on. Once you get used to it, it's wonderful--you can edit quoted text without any concern about line breaks. I have to wonder why MS hasn't implemented it in their mail clients after all these years. SignatureMike Rosenberg <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart Toyota Prius fans: Check out alt.autos.toyota.prius > Again, you really need to reread what I posted about format=flowed to > understand that it's really not about bars or carets at all: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > wonder why MS hasn't implemented it in their mail clients after all > these years. It appears that I'm going to be stuck with the bars no matter what I use by staying with Mac OS-X. I'd prefer not to but like I've mentioned before, I'd still rather stick with Mac than going back to Windows. Many people think automatic transmissions are wonderful too but I wouldn't buy one. It's just a matter of preference and I don't see much of that available now regarding this matter... SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply [Snipped Text] > It appears that I'm going to be stuck with the bars no matter what I use by > staying with Mac OS-X. I'd prefer not to but like I've mentioned before, > I'd still rather stick with Mac than going back to Windows. But they're not a Mac only thing either, they're on Windows too, except that quoting and signatures are totally f.cked in Outlook and OE. SignatureAndy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS Honda Civic: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor) http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/thehewitts2/index.htm (updated Aug 28 2005) > >>> The other email programs don't have the preference on how to set > >>> the display, so that's Apple's fault? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > They aren't originating from the Mac Mail? I don't see any carets in this > mail program and I don't see where to turn the bars off. I do see where I Bars are not originating in Apple Mail. Apple mail *display* bars for *your*. It *sends* > signs. Go into your Sent Items folder and select a message you sent where you saw the bars. Then go to the View menu and select View->Message->Raw Source. Take a look at that raw source. No bars. SignaturePlain Bread alone for e-mail, thanks. The rest gets trashed. No HTML in E-Mail! -- http://www.expita.com/nomime.html Are you posting responses that are easy for others to follow? http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting > > How can the industry be standard with the > and Apple using something > > else. > > APPLE ISN'T USING SOMETHING ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This all gets back to the format=flowed discussion I attempted to lead us into a while back. Mail, like Eudora, uses f=f by default, but Eudora gives you a way, albeit estoric, to turn that off. It's all about being able to edit quoted text and have it flow to display proper-looking paragraphs, akin to automatic word wrap in word processors. I think this page does an excellent job of explaining things: http://www.joeclark.org/ffaq.html I've just noticed that this page was posted in May, 2000, which IIRC was months before OS X 10.0 was released, so it predates Apple's Mail. At this point, f=f was already the default in Eudora for some time, and although Eudora does allow the user to turn this off, the way of doing so is esoteric--rather than just changing a setting in Preferences, one has to know, or find on the web site, the command to type. SignatureMike Rosenberg <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart Toyota Prius fans: Check out alt.autos.toyota.prius > This all gets back to the format=flowed discussion I attempted to > lead us into a while back. Mail, like Eudora, uses f=f by default, > but Eudora gives you a way, albeit estoric, to turn that off. Yup. > I've just noticed that this page was posted in May, 2000, which IIRC > was months before OS X 10.0 was released, so it predates Apple's > Mail. At this point, f=f was already the default in Eudora for some > time, Eudora introduced flow-formatted while we were working on Emailer 2.0 or 2.1. If memory serves correctly, we were going to implement flow formatted text in Emailer 3, but alas, the company changed its thrust before we could do that. As it was, we certified 2.1 the day before the layoffs. If we had been a day later, it would never have seen light of day outside the company. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. [Snipped Text] > > The other email programs don't have the preference on how to set the > > display, so that's Apple's fault? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in without any thoughts that maybe someone might not want them. The > receiving client only gets what's sent to it. Just to add my 2/c - Apple DO NOT add the bars, they are a display format for the reading client, it is a special text format called 'format=flowed'. They only act on seeing the standard '>' character. [Snipped Text] > Look, you seem to be missing what I'm saying all together. I don't want the > damn things there and yes, you sent me an email which contains the bars. I > already knew that which is why I asked if they could be removed. The bars aren't contained *in* the message, they are simply being displayed by Mail in place of the '>'. Indeed, most mail clients actually use these quoting bars by default now. The only way to turn them off is to send as plain text. > >>> The only way to effect a change is to change the quote character > >>> from the caret to something else--and since the caret is the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > How can the industry be standard with the > and Apple using something else. As others have said, and myself earlier, they do not. > > I > > proved that to you by sending you mail from the news browser. The mail [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Like I said, the problem is the bars, not the lack of them. If they weren't > present I wouldn't have even mentioned this. They aren't present, they are merely a display format. > > Try the experiment that Mike Rosenberg suggested. Take your outgoing > > mail, with the vertical bars, and save it to disk as plain text, then [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > isn't worth talking about any longer. They made a mail program to their > satisfaction, not mine... Twat. Try any other mail client then, Eudora, Thunderbird, Entourage, they all use it now. SignatureAndy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS Honda Civic: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor) http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/thehewitts2/index.htm (updated Aug 28 2005) >> Look, you seem to be missing what I'm saying all together. I don't want the >> damn things there and yes, you sent me an email which contains the bars. I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Indeed, most mail clients actually use these quoting bars by default > now. The only way to turn them off is to send as plain text. And that can be done using Mac Mail? That's what I've been asking all along. How can I get them to turn off. >> How can the industry be standard with the > and Apple using something else. > > As others have said, and myself earlier, they do not. Apple are not using the vertical bars instead of the > >> Like I said, the problem is the bars, not the lack of them. If they weren't >> present I wouldn't have even mentioned this. > > They aren't present, they are merely a display format. Present or display, that's what people see when I send them mail. >> The problem is 100% with my mail client. It doesn't provide the option to >> turn the bars off. Which is why I'm dumping the damn thing because this [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Twat. Try any other mail client then, Eudora, Thunderbird, Entourage, > they all use it now. Twat. I've checked the machine I'm mailing to and the only messages which display the vertical bars are coming from me on this machine using this mail client as it's the only one I've got. But that of course will change too. is this something that applies to all mail apps for OS-X? SignatureCheers! Dennis Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply > The bars are showing up on other email which doesn't have that selected as > their preference because it's not available. What's there to get? The bars > originate from Apple mail the sender, not the receiver. If they didn't go > out that way, they wouldn't receive them that way. No, they don't. Consider: 1. I send mail and include myself in the distribution. 2. My ISP's mail server offers a web interface. 3. I go the the web interface and look at the message I just sent. 4. I see ">" characters where Mail.app had shown (colored) bars. If I retrieve the message from the server with Mail.app, the bars are displayed. SignatureTom Stiller PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3 7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF > Nope. That's not what's happening. If it was, this wouldn't have > even come up because nobody would have questioned what I was sending. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the bars are gone and the > are back which is fine for replying, but > simply reading the msg, it's the bars... The problem is in their email application, and how they've configured the application. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. >>> I'm curious: What don't you like about that vertical bar paradigm? >> >> It doesn't appear that way when forwarded to Windows users. > > Oh, that depends entirely on the mail client they're using. Not if the flag-character is ascii, no. > Now, I'm guessing that Outlook Express, which most of them are using, doesn't > support it, but if they were to use, say, Eudora, they'd see the vertical bar. So you can guess about how it's being received, and sometimes you'll be right. Other times, wrong. It would be nice if Mail had other than a one-size-fits all approach. > But my question is why does that matter to you anyway? So you see the > vertical bar, they see the quote symbols instead, what does it matter? They see a quote symbol in some cases, though. That's my source of irritation. I'm not the original poster. But the argument "why does it matter" is the perfect dismissal. Death, in the end, doesn't *really* matter. I personally find it irritating because because attempting to keep embedded dialogues readable can be a waste of time. When you add to this a haphazard approach to top/bottom the exchange becomes a mess. Then people say "I didn't say that". Or "You're saying exactly what I just said". SignatureThank you and have a nice day. |
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