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Mac Forum / General / Networking / August 2005Help with Mail.app Connection Problems aka Bogus "Password Rejected" Message
I'm about ready to give up on this application :-(. I have it set to check mail every 5 minutes and within an hour the icon starts bouncing in the dock to tell me that the server rejected my password. Of course the application hangs until I respond. Searching google, testing with other mail apps, logging in manually, and simply canceling and checking again with mail.app indicates to me that my password is just fine and this is simply the message Mail gives when anything goes wrong. In this case, it seems that it is timing out waiting for a response from the server. My ISP did some work on their server recently because of overload and ever since then this problem has been chronic. Of course, their tech support people don't want to hear about it especially when they find out I'm using a Mac and Apple's Mail program. Has anyone figured out a work-around for this? There should be some way to patch the wait time to make it be more patient. I'm also thinking of writing an Applescript to drive the mail check, catch the error, and simply retry. Anyone tried that? As a test, I have been running Thunderbird in parallel with Mail and leaving the messages on the server. Thunderbird doesn't seem to time out and works fine... until it crashes. It also doesn't integrate with Address Book, so between that and the crashing, I don't think I'll be switching to it as my regular mail program.  SignatureNelson > I'm about ready to give up on this application :-(. I have it set to > check mail every 5 minutes and within an hour the icon starts bouncing > in the dock to tell me that the server rejected my password. Of course > the application hangs until I respond. Are you using Comcast? I haven't upgraded to Tiger yet, because a number of people reported problems like this after the upgrade. Even on Panther I occasionally get these spurious failures. Another thing I notice when it happens, is if it sits in that prompt for a few hours the application starts chewing up CPU time. Cancelling the prompt doesn't clear up this behavior, I have to Quit the application; and sometimes this can take more than 5 minutes. Has anyone seen this part of the problem? SignatureBarry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu Arlington, MA *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me *** >> I'm about ready to give up on this application :-(. I have it set to >> check mail every 5 minutes and within an hour the icon starts bouncing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Are you using Comcast? I haven't upgraded to Tiger yet, because a > number of people reported problems like this after the upgrade. Yes I saw that. No, I'm still using 10.3.7 and Road Runner. "Widgets" and indexing every word in every file on my hard drive just don't seem to be worth all the reported problems and incompatibilities reported with Tiger. I'm sure the first thing I would do if I did upgrade would be to turn off Spotlight. Talk about a solution in search of a problem :-) > Even on Panther I occasionally get these spurious failures. Another > thing I notice when it happens, is if it sits in that prompt for a few > hours the application starts chewing up CPU time. Cancelling the prompt > doesn't clear up this behavior, I have to Quit the application; and > sometimes this can take more than 5 minutes. Has anyone seen this part > of the problem? No, I haven't noticed that. How are you concluding that it eats up CPU time? You mean even when it is _not_ trying to fetch or send mail? If that is the case, maybe that's the source of the problem, ie it is too busy doing something else to respond to the password prompt in a timely fashion. I do notice that Thunderbird never seems to have the problem and seems to check my mail (4 different accounts) _significantly_ faster. As I mentioned in another branch of the thread, I think I am going to put a packet sniffer on it to eliminate some possibilities. SignatureNelson > > Even on Panther I occasionally get these spurious failures. Another > > thing I notice when it happens, is if it sits in that prompt for a few [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > No, I haven't noticed that. How are you concluding that it eats up CPU > time? You mean even when it is _not_ trying to fetch or send mail? If Activity Monitor shows it using lots of CPU time. It's not trying to do anything -- this happens even when it's just sitting in that dialogue that says "Please enter your username and password", and then when it's just sitting idle after cancelling the dialogue. > that is the case, maybe that's the source of the problem, ie it is too > busy doing something else to respond to the password prompt in a timely > fashion. I do notice that Thunderbird never seems to have the problem > and seems to check my mail (4 different accounts) _significantly_ > faster. No, I've run tcpdumps when this has been going on, and seen that the POP server was reporting an error when Mail.app is trying to login, even though the username and password were sent correctly. SignatureBarry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu Arlington, MA *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me *** > > that is the case, maybe that's the source of the problem, ie it is too > > busy doing something else to respond to the password prompt in a timely [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > server was reporting an error when Mail.app is trying to login, even > though the username and password were sent correctly. Some POP servers lock the mailbox so that only one connection can access it at a time. Sometimes it takes a while for the POP server to clear the lock after the session ends. THis can be because of several reasons. (The last itme I looked the quality of POP server implementations varied considerably; God help you if your ISP chose the wrong one.) If the mailbox is locked, the server has no choice but to send -ERR and mail clients usually interpret this as a password failure. In this case it would make more sense to pass the error message to the user, but I don't know of any clients that do so. >>> that is the case, maybe that's the source of the problem, ie it is too >>> busy doing something else to respond to the password prompt in a timely [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > more sense to pass the error message to the user, but I don't > know of any clients that do so. That is interesting to know. I have 4 different accounts I am checking on the server. I am somewhat puzzled however at how this could be the problem since they all have different logins and passwords... unless the server is locking based on my IP address? Another thought occurs to me: I am behind a NAT router so each request is probably sending a different port for response. I wonder if that could have any effect? Nice X-Face, BTW :-) SignatureNelson > >>> that is the case, maybe that's the source of the problem, ie it is too > >>> busy doing something else to respond to the password prompt in a timely [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > problem since they all have different logins and passwords... unless > the server is locking based on my IP address? The mailbox could be locked because the server takes a long time to rewrite the mailbox (or its index) after the POP session ends. Or the server might have a TCP-close handshaking problem that causes the connection for the old session to linger past the QUIT command, which in turn causes the mailbox lock to linger. > Another thought occurs to me: I am behind a NAT router so each request > is probably sending a different port for response. I wonder if that > could have any effect? Doubtful. >>>>> that is the case, maybe that's the source of the problem, ie it is too >>>>> busy doing something else to respond to the password prompt in a timely [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > causes the connection for the old session to linger past the QUIT > command, which in turn causes the mailbox lock to linger. I'm still trying to get my head around this idea :-) If I have two distinct mail accounts, say alpha@mailserver.com and beta@melserverserver.com and I check alpha first, are you saying that the alpha session will somehow lock out the beta session? If that were the case, then wouldn't there be interference between all users on the server? The only thing the accounts have in common is my IP and the fact that they one of the six email accounts I am allowed to create with my ISP. Or are you saying that if I check alpha and check again five minutes later it could still be locked? Thanks for your help. SignatureNelson > >>>>> that is the case, maybe that's the source of the problem, ie it is too > >>>>> busy doing something else to respond to the password prompt in a timely [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > beta@melserverserver.com and I check alpha first, are you saying that > the alpha session will somehow lock out the beta session? No, I've never seen that happen. > Or are you saying that if I check alpha and check again five minutes > later it could still be locked? Yes, that's what I'm saying, although if that's the case it's more likely a TCP-close problem or something similar than taking a long time to rewrite a mailbox. 5 minutes is a long time. You might try asking your ISP about it, assuming you can get in contact with someone technical there. It would be helpful if you could duplicate the problem outside Mail.app so they can't use that as an excuse. From Terminal you can connect directly to your ISP's POP server using telnet and talk directly to the server. Example: $ telnet mail-1.wonderworks.com 110 Trying 192.203.206.67... Connected to mail-1.wonderworks.com. Escape character is '^]'. +OK mail-1.wonderworks.com server ready user kyle +OK Name is a valid mailbox pass mylittlesecret +OK Maildrop locked and ready quit +OK Connection closed by foreign host. If you can do this and get -ERR instead of +OK after you send the password, then that's something you can show to your ISP as proof that it's not a problem with Mail.app. ---> [Supersedes previous post... as if any servers/clients actually honored this anymore :-) ] >>>>> that is the case, maybe that's the source of the problem, ie it is too >>>>> busy doing something else to respond to the password prompt in a timely [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > causes the connection for the old session to linger past the QUIT > command, which in turn causes the mailbox lock to linger. I'm still trying to get my head around this idea :-) If I have two distinct mail accounts, say alpha@mailserver.com and beta@melserverserver.com and I check alpha first, are you saying that the alpha session will somehow lock out the beta session? If that were the case, then wouldn't there be interference between all users on the server? The only thing the accounts have in common is my IP and the fact that they one of the six email accounts I am allowed to create with my ISP. Or are you saying that if I check alpha and check again five minutes later it could still be locked? Thanks for your help. PS: Any ideas why this doesn't happen with Thunderbird? SignatureNelson > PS: Any ideas why this doesn't happen with Thunderbird? Thunderbird might handle connection shutdown differently. If so, then perhaps Mail.app is the culprit or at least there may be something that Mail.app could do differently to avoid the problem. There isn't necessarily a right or wrong here--- code often gets written by trial and error based on observed behavior in the field. Because of TCP-close issues that might hang a single threaded POP client such a client might not wait for the +OK response to a POP QUIT command. The client might just close the connection immediately, which might make the server unhappy (hanging onto a mailbox lock for a long time) depending on how it is coded. I have no source code for Mail.app so this is all speculation. >>> Even on Panther I occasionally get these spurious failures. Another >>> thing I notice when it happens, is if it sits in that prompt for a few [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > that says "Please enter your username and password", and then when it's > just sitting idle after cancelling the dialogue. I can't reproduce this. According to iPulse it's using ~ 10% of the processor when it is waiting for the password and almost nothing after canceling. >> that is the case, maybe that's the source of the problem, ie it is too >> busy doing something else to respond to the password prompt in a timely [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > server was reporting an error when Mail.app is trying to login, even > though the username and password were sent correctly. Was the error "Password Failure" or something else that Mail is reporting as password failure? I haven't used tcpdumps... does it time-stamp the packets? As I mentioned, I see a significant difference between how long it takes Thunderbird to check the mail vs Mail.app. I'm still thinking it could be a timing issue. You could try Thunderbird (it's free) and see what you think. It would be interesting to know if it fails on the Comcast servers also. In my case, the fact that Thunderbird works and Mail doesn't leaves me with little leverage with Road Runner Tech Support... as if I ever had any :-) It also leaves me scratching my head. SignatureNelson > Yes I saw that. No, I'm still using 10.3.7 and Road Runner. "Widgets" > and indexing every word in every file on my hard drive just don't seem [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > :-) > ilities. No solutions here, but thought I would add my experience. I'm using Roadrunner as my ISP, but I don't use their email. I use my own mail server from TotalChoice Hosting. Mail runs 24/7 and checks email every minute. I have never had to enter password again. I remember having to do it a couple years ago when I was still using Roadrunner's email server. Using Tiger 10.4.2, Powerbook G4 1.67 GHz, 1 Gig RAM, uptime: 5 Days, 13 hrs, 36 mins (since last security update). SignatureWalt Basil http://www.basilweb.net http://blog.basilweb.net >> Yes I saw that. No, I'm still using 10.3.7 and Road Runner. "Widgets" >> and indexing every word in every file on my hard drive just don't seem [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Using Tiger 10.4.2, Powerbook G4 1.67 GHz, 1 Gig RAM, uptime: 5 Days, > 13 hrs, 36 mins (since last security update). Thanks for responding. Yeah, the problem started just after Roadrunner "fixed" their servers after a several day outage. Prior to that "fix" I had been using Mail without a problem for over a year. Im guessing they switched to whatever software Comcast is using. I have seen a few people using Outlook on Wintel boxes complain about what appears to be the same problem, but they are few and far between. The Roadrunner help (sic) desk tried to tell me it was my firewall. They are the same ones who ask for the http address of Usenet :-) Once I reconfigure my internal network, I'm going to put a packet sniffer on it and see if I can't figure out what is going on. It seems like a fool's errand, however, because I don't see Apple fixing Mail if it is at fault (I don't think they even accept trouble reports) nor, in the unlikely event that I was able to communicate with a technically literate person at Roadrunner do I think they are going to do anything to fix their end unless it affects a lot more (read Wintel) people. SignatureNelson > I'm about ready to give up on this application :-(. I have it set to > check mail every 5 minutes and within an hour the icon starts bouncing [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Address Book, so between that and the crashing, I don't think I'll be > switching to it as my regular mail program. Hi Nelson, Check out this article at Macfixit: http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20050810082509725 Hope this helps Rob >> I'm about ready to give up on this application :-(. I have it set to >> check mail every 5 minutes and within an hour the icon starts bouncing [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Hope this helps > Rob Thanks for the pointer, Rob. Unfortunately I am using neither 10.4 (I use 10.3.7... what do I need "widgets" and constant indexing of every file on my HD for?) nor Comcast (I use Road Runner). Also, I haven't yet had a problem sending mail, although I probably don't send enough that I would notice it. I had seen this article in some of my research but like most MacFixit articles, it doesn't leave one with the sense that anyone really understands what is going on. Just a lot of "I threw salt over my shoulder and the problem disappeared..." :-) I have been using Mail and Panther for these accounts for over a year with nary a problem. The only thing which has changed is Road Runner "fixing" their servers. The only thing that is clear is that it is _not_ a password problem and it only occurs occasionally, but that is enough to hang up the app several times a day. I think I am going to put a packet sniffer on it to see if I can figure out what is going on, however my intuition tells me that it is probably a timing issue. Perhaps the 10.4 upgrade also introduces a timing delay for some reason or another and that could explain the problems related in the MacFixit article. SignatureNelson [snip] > As a test, I have been running Thunderbird in parallel with Mail and > leaving the messages on the server. Thunderbird doesn't seem to time > out and works fine... until it crashes. It also doesn't integrate with > Address Book, so between that and the crashing, I don't think I'll be > switching to it as my regular mail program. I can't help you with your Mail problems (I don't use it), but as for Thunderbird and the Address Book, you can download a free program called Address Book Exporter, <http://gwenhiver.net/applications/addressbookexporter/index.php> using the Yahoo option. That's not as handy as what Address Book allows you to do, but Thunderbird's address book isn't too bad. Thunderbird doesn't crash on my machine (10.3.9). SignatureHuan > [snip] >> As a test, I have been running Thunderbird in parallel with Mail and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > using the Yahoo option. That's not as handy as what Address Book allows > you to do, but Thunderbird's address book isn't too bad. Thanks for the pointer. I may have to resort to that at some point. However, to paraphrase Einstein, "Two Address Books?" > Thunderbird doesn't crash on my machine (10.3.9). Are you using the latest version? I have it set to check mail every minute (for testing this problem... I don't get _that_ much mail :-)) and after about a day I get the proprietary error reporting dialog to send them a crash report. After you fill it out and send it, you get the crash report from the system. SignatureNelson |
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