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Mac Forum / General / Hardware / September 2007



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New IBM Processor

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Charles Richmond - 24 Sep 2007 00:43 GMT
IBM has developed the Cell processor for the Sony
Playstation 3 video game. Now anyone familiar with
video games... knows that gamers want the fastest
processors available. The Cell processor is very
much like the PPC processor.

So why did Mac move to Intel, instead of picking
up the Cell processor???

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|   Charles and Francis Richmond     richmond at plano dot net   |
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Shawn Hirn - 24 Sep 2007 03:00 GMT
> IBM has developed the Cell processor for the Sony
> Playstation 3 video game. Now anyone familiar with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> So why did Mac move to Intel, instead of picking
> up the Cell processor???

The decision to move to Intel processors was made nearly two years ago
for a variety of reasons such as IBM not having a clear roadmap of the
G5 processor's future. IBM was also not able to meet promises to provide
a version of the G5 that would be suitable for laptops. At the time the
decision to move Apple's computers to Intel was made, Intel was able to
provide a roadmap for its processors, but IBM could not. Since Apple's
Intel-based Macs are doing quite well in the mark place, it seems Steve
Jobs made the right decision.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 24 Sep 2007 05:35 GMT
> The decision to move to Intel processors was made nearly two years ago
> for a variety of reasons such as IBM not having a clear roadmap of the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Intel-based Macs are doing quite well in the mark place, it seems Steve
> Jobs made the right decision.

The Cell processor is not as big a deal as it sounds. It's a single core
proecessor with a relativley large number of vector processors. The G4 and
G5 chips have one vector processor (called the AltiVec) which speed up
MacOs video display operations.

However there are no performance gains having more than one. The PS/3
games are specificaly designed to use the multiple vector processors.
General purpose programs won't benefit from them, in order to be of
any real use, additional processors need to be regular ones.

A vector processor does arithmetic quickly on sets of small integers
for example adding 1 to each of 4 8 bit integers at the same time.
Very useful for moving a cursor on a screen, or figuring out where
how to draw a line.

The general computing case of loading a 64 bit integer from memory
combing it in some way with another 64 bit integer and then stuffing
it back in memory, or any floating point or logic instructions aren't
processed in the cells, but in the relatively weak main processor.

So using a cell processor in a Mac would give you similar results
to a dual processor G5 moving the mouse around, assuming you could
get software that was properly written, but more like a G3 if you
did anything usefull.

For example, if you were running a word processor and the system
and program were well coded for the cell, you would see the characters
pop up on the screen quickly and with beautiful rendition, but real
time spell checking would be impossibly slow.

IBM had real vector processors which were able to handle larger
groups of high precsision floating point numbers for their
mainframes since the mid 1980's. They were expensive and
not usefull enough to make it into general computing.

Intel produced the first PC with a vector processor, the Pentium
with MMX, and due to the graphical nature of PC programs it
has become very popular, but only one per processor. It is
also a small scale vector processor.

In the Mac world, the AltiVec came relatively late, with the G4,
and while you get improved graphics on G4's over G3's, it's not
equired for MacOS and many applications.

In a few weeks when Leopard ships, that may no longer be the case.
It is believed that Leopard will require an AltiVec (G4/G5).

As IBM improves the function and speed of the vector processors
in the Cell, it has great promise but as a general computing device
it is be a long time away.

As for doing similar things for PC's, there is a compiler available
for using the vector processors in the latest high end NVidia
graphics cards as arithmetical processors. For the right programs
the performance boost is amazing, but it is a very specialized
thing.

Geoff.

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Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

Gregory Weston - 24 Sep 2007 15:02 GMT
> > The decision to move to Intel processors was made nearly two years ago
> > for a variety of reasons such as IBM not having a clear roadmap of the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> G5 chips have one vector processor (called the AltiVec) which speed up
> MacOs video display operations.

Phrased poorly. Vector units in the CPU don't speed up video display.
They speed up the performance of identical manipulations on large blocks
of data by doing them concurrently. Probably the most common target for
this optimization is A/V data, but it's about data manipulation, not
pushing stuff out to the raster device.

The G4, G4e and G5 all have multiple vector units, but they're for
different specific operations.


> However there are no performance gains having more than one. The PS/3
> games are specificaly designed to use the multiple vector processors.
> General purpose programs won't benefit from them, in order to be of
> any real use, additional processors need to be regular ones.
>
> A vector processor does arithmetic quickly on sets of small integers

... or floats ...

> for example adding 1 to each of 4 8 bit integers at the same time.
> Very useful for moving a cursor on a screen, or figuring out where
> how to draw a line.

> In the Mac world, the AltiVec came relatively late, with the G4,
> and while you get improved graphics on G4's over G3's, it's not
> required for MacOS and many applications.

But it is leveraged by Mac OS and some applications when present.

G
Charles Richmond - 24 Sep 2007 06:22 GMT
>> IBM has developed the Cell processor for the Sony
>> Playstation 3 video game. Now anyone familiar with
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Intel-based Macs are doing quite well in the mark place, it seems Steve
> Jobs made the right decision.

Okay, I understand. Another poster explained at length why
the IBM Cell processor was *not* appropriate for the Mac.

Still, I thought the PPC was an excellent processor... even
though speedwise Intel has moved ahead. I am afraid that the
PC viruses will migrate too easily to the Intel Macs. The
PPC was a shield against that. I can also see some folks
pirating Mac OS/X to run on a regular PC instead of a Mac.

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|   Charles and Francis Richmond     richmond at plano dot net   |
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Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 24 Sep 2007 10:25 GMT
> Still, I thought the PPC was an excellent processor... even
> though speedwise Intel has moved ahead. I am afraid that the
> PC viruses will migrate too easily to the Intel Macs. The
> PPC was a shield against that. I can also see some folks
> pirating Mac OS/X to run on a regular PC instead of a Mac.

The problem with the PPC was how Apple implemented it. The original idea
was that IBM would provide the technology but not make the chips. IBM
prefers much higher profit margins than you can get out a commodity PC
chip.

They prefer to go for the high end desktop workstation and server market.

The original deal was to have Motorola Semiconductor make the chips for
them. Motorola Semiconductor was spun off from Motorola and now operates
under the name Freescale. They concentrate on making low power versions
of their own chips, I have owned several cell phones and Palm Pilots
with 68000 chips in them and a slightly improved version of it still is
sold.

They never could get a working G5 chip in the quantities Apple needed
and so IBM was making them for Apple. This was neither good for Apple
nor IBM. IBM never never did produce a decent laptop version of the G5.

The idea of running MacOS using an X86 is not new, Apple ported MacOS to
the 80486 processor in a project they called "Star Trek". It worked, but
was abandoned when the IBM deal was made.

The switch to Intel type processors was a good mode for Apple, because
instead of trying to get the only manufacturer in the world to keep up
with their demands and technology needs, they only need a small fraction
of their output. Plus if Intel can't/won't supply their needs, there are
AMD and others. Instead of being totaly dependent upon one company,
they have a choice.

Apple is also no longer the driving force behind improvments in performance,
the PC game market is, which is much hungrier for improved performance and
much more willing to spend money for new and faster hardware.

The two other issues are almost irrelevant. Piracy is not a real issue
becase it does not stop people from buying Macintosh computers. MacOS does
not run on a standard PC, you need to add a special boot loader to get
it going. Once you do, you find that some of your hardware does not work.

Apple only provides drivers for hardware they sell, and third party
hardware vendors don't often provide MacOS drivers. The ones that do
make expensive add-ons, not motherboard components.

Originally Apple had planned to put DRM chips in their computers and you
were not supposed to be able to run the commerical release of MacOS on
PC's without them. The developer machines used to "seed" production of
Intel programs were commodity PC's without the chip (Intel produced the
motherboards) so that version of MacOS was easy to "hack".

Because the base operating system behind MacOS is open source,
it was too easy to "hack" around the DRM chips and Apple gave up.
In the end it does not loose them money, there is no cost to them
for your running it on your PC, and most likely you would not have
bought a Macintosh anyway.

If you like MacOS so much, in the end you will probably buy one of
their computers, so it may end up being free advertisement.

The second issus viruses, is not as big a problem. There have always
been MacOS viruses, I encountered one in 10-15 year old software,
going through some old disks. Luckily the 5 year old anti-virus
I had caught and fixed it. :-)

The two things that make the Mac as lesser target for viruses is the
lack of Macintosh systems in the real world and the UNIX base of
the operating system.

Because of the UNIX base, the operating system is much harder to write
viruses for (even though it's open source) and since you have a chance
of infecting at most 12% of the computers in the world, it's less than
worth it.

Most virus writers these days concentrate on the large number of older
Windows systems out there, where do not run any anti-virus or anti-spyware
and are easliy "hacked". Microsoft no longer supports them and if you are
running a bootleg copy of Windows/XP or Vista you can no longer use
Windows Update to get security fixes.

These systems are ripe for the picking and often are.

Geoff,

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Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

Gregory Weston - 24 Sep 2007 14:52 GMT
> Because of the UNIX base, the operating system is much harder to write
> viruses for (even though it's open source) and since you have a chance
> of infecting at most 12% of the computers in the world, it's less than
> worth it.

Serious attackers go after devices with a much smaller installed base
than the Mac. The driving force for serious attacks is not the size of
the target but ROI. Macs are not targets because the investment is very
large and the likely payoff from actually compromising a specific Mac OS
installation is quite low.

G
Herbert Viola - 26 Sep 2007 00:05 GMT
> The problem with the PPC was how Apple implemented it. The original idea
> was that IBM would provide the technology but not make the chips. IBM
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> with 68000 chips in them and a slightly improved version of it still is
> sold.

This seems like speculation on your part. IBM was always intended and
wanted to be a mass producer of PPC chips. The reason Moto and Apple
were gifted the PPC blueprints as part of the deal was to build in
competition. When Apple first chose the Moto chips in the early '80s
they were faster than the Intel chips, but Intel spent more on R&D
because Moto felt Apple was a captive market. Apple wanted to avoid this
happening again and so insisted that IBM gift the tech to Moto so as to
create a competitor. It was agreed that the three companies would
jointly develop future versions of the chip. Then Moto developed the G4
on its own. Apple decided to use the G4 even though it was outside the
circle of shared tech. This put Apple back into the situation of being a
captive market. Something similar happened with the G5.
Shawn Hirn - 24 Sep 2007 12:10 GMT
> Okay, I understand. Another poster explained at length why
> the IBM Cell processor was *not* appropriate for the Mac.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> PPC was a shield against that. I can also see some folks
> pirating Mac OS/X to run on a regular PC instead of a Mac.

At the time Apple first decided to use the G5, it was indeed an
excellent processor, and it still is. I have a PowerMac G5 and I am
happy with it and I have no plans to replace it any time soon.

Viruses from Windows with not migrate to Mac OS X simply because the
processor chip Apple uses in new Macs is from Intel now, not IBM.
Viruses take advantage of operating system vulnerabilities, not
processor chip bugs.
Charles Richmond - 24 Sep 2007 17:38 GMT
>> Okay, I understand. Another poster explained at length why
>> the IBM Cell processor was *not* appropriate for the Mac.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Viruses take advantage of operating system vulnerabilities, not
> processor chip bugs.

Sometimes a virus will take advantage of security holes in
operating systems. But that is *not* always the case. The
x86 machine language will be the same on the Intel Mac as on
the Wintel PC. So conceivably a virus could be made that
would execute on both.

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|   Charles and Francis Richmond     richmond at plano dot net   |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
Gregory Weston - 24 Sep 2007 20:42 GMT
> >> Okay, I understand. Another poster explained at length why
> >> the IBM Cell processor was *not* appropriate for the Mac.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Sometimes a virus will take advantage of security holes in
> operating systems.

In the modern era, malware virtually always takes advantage of holes in
the OS and/or end-user application software.

> But that is *not* always the case. The
> x86 machine language will be the same on the Intel Mac as on
> the Wintel PC. So conceivably a virus could be made that
> would execute on both.

But the engineering effort of doing so would dwarf the potential return,
rendering the likelihood that anyone will actually do so negligible at
this time. The people that know how to do what you describe have better
targets than consumer desktop machines.
Gregory Weston - 24 Sep 2007 14:47 GMT
> IBM has developed the Cell processor for the Sony
> Playstation 3 video game. Now anyone familiar with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> So why did Mac move to Intel, instead of picking
> up the Cell processor???

Because the Cell is a terrible processor for general purpose desktop
computing. Your understanding of the console game market is, bluntly,
simplistic to the point of error.
Herbert Viola - 26 Sep 2007 00:09 GMT
> IBM has developed the Cell processor for the Sony
> Playstation 3 video game. Now anyone familiar with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> So why did Mac move to Intel, instead of picking
> up the Cell processor???

Gamers don't want the fastest chip, they want the fastest video card.
Secondly, there are credible rumors that Apple tested the Cell and found
it severely lacking.

Increasing the number of transistors in a chip increases costs and
decreases the maximum clock speed. The Cell lacks many features
important to personal computing in order to lower the transistor count.
This makes it a poor choice for personal computing. This is the basic
problem for specialized chips. Sun's specialized server chip has no
floating point unit, it might be great for a server, but won't do sh.t 
as a personal computer cpu.
 
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