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Mac Forum / Country Specific / Australian Mac Group / September 2007



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Cross[ad]Dressing Question

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Emma Grey - 05 Sep 2007 08:52 GMT
Hi guys

I want to edit the code for a webpage I've downloaded, and send the
whole package to a Windozer. Will Win-zip (or whatever it's called)
open (restore) something (like a folder of code and a couple of jpgs)
zipped on a Mac?

Probably a silly question, but it's not something I've had to do before.

TIA

Emma
Rifty - 05 Sep 2007 10:58 GMT
> Hi guys
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Emma

I think so, if your Win mates know how to unpack a compressed file. I
believe I have done it. Hang on - I'll send a zipped folder of stuff to
my PC laptop...

-----

OK - what happens if you compress it using Create Archive on the Mac,
and then send it to the PC is that there's no problem unpacking the
files, but it does create a folder of the DS_Store files as well, and
that could confuse the PCers if they open that folder first and see dot
files, into thinking that the file you sent is corrupted. If you just
tell them to delete that folder when it is unpacked and open the other
one, they'll be fine.

Rifty
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Emma Grey - 05 Sep 2007 14:36 GMT
> > Hi guys
> >
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Rifty

Thanks Rifty, I think the recipient should be able to filter the
ingredients. He's cluey enough to have produced a web page, even if it
was so appallingly designed. But he's through worst of it, which was
managing to handle the critique constructively!

As always, I'm grateful for the assistance; when I'm rich and famous
I'll be able to afford all 3 major platforms! Mac (old and new) and
Linux I have. But I need a bigger place if I'm to house any more
computers.

All the best to you out there

Emma
Rifty - 05 Sep 2007 15:29 GMT
>  when I'm rich and famous
> I'll be able to afford all 3 major platforms! Mac (old and new) and
> Linux I have. But I need a bigger place if I'm to house any more
> computers.

At last count I had about 15; working ones, that is, starting with a
Commodore-64. I suspect it still works.  And several that don't work,
none of which are Macs. None of them have a hard drive, either!

I would actually love to set up a room with all these computers working
- it would be quite a museum!  But I simply don't have the space.

I decided that at least once before I die I would get the computer I
really wanted, so I bought a few weeks ago an 8 Core (Quad Intel Xeon 2
x 3 gHz) machine with 4 gigs of RAM. Yes, it's beautiful. I can die
happy... and it sure speeds up editing film etc.
 
> All the best to you out there

You too - good luck with the cross dressing.... :)

Rifty
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Emma Grey - 07 Sep 2007 15:13 GMT
> >  when I'm rich and famous
> > I'll be able to afford all 3 major platforms! Mac (old and new) and
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Rifty

Hi Rifty

Good luck with your sleek new toy. Commodore-64! Oh yes, I bought one
way back (don't ask when!) complete with that BASIC handbook, but
didn't have the patience at that time to explore very far. I'd worked
on a massive library cataloging project back in the late 70's
(England), so was not entirely a starter, but the great machine
(PDP-11?) was 5 miles away, and I felt little more than a worker ant on
that project.

I needed a few years with a Mac (SE/30) to build a conceptual horizon
from which to back-step into the modularity of the unix world. My first
go was installing openBSD on an LC; I still have that old box. Next was
a go at Minix on an SE (coal burning!). But my favourite was the SE/30
I rebirthed from 3 duds to run Debian on. But sadly it had those leaky
pots, and I'd need a new [!] board to get it going again; it's in a
corner somewhere. Sad, as I have an Ethernet card for it, and could get
it to fly the www - a bit of a thrill, a SE/30 being the machine the
original internet proposal was typed on.

But ­ I'm pleased to say ­ I have heaps of research to do these days,
and as I'm in Arts/Social Sciences, there's little excuse to play with
those old boxen. A project to present History in a more fluid hypertext
environment is still on, but one really needs full-scale browsers to do
that, and I'm envious of your Big Mac. My trusty G4 will have to do me
a while longer, unless some publisher gets an attack of generosity! Ha!

All the best, and have fun.

Emma
Rifty - 08 Sep 2007 03:32 GMT
> Hi Rifty
>
> Good luck with your sleek new toy.

Sleek?  It's as ugly as sin - a great big fat silver box.. but it's easy
to get to like.. :)  Hey I always name my computers and this has just
given me the name for the MacPro - Fat Boy! (Let's hope he doesn't blow
up....)

> Commodore-64! Oh yes, I bought one
> way back (don't ask when!)

I don't have to! Reckon I could guess the date within two years...  :)

> complete with that BASIC handbook, but
> didn't have the patience at that time to explore very far.

Nor me - but I wrote some cute BASIC programs that resembled spaghetti
with GOSUBs!

> I'd worked
> on a massive library cataloging project back in the late 70's
> (England), so was not entirely a starter, but the great machine
> (PDP-11?) was 5 miles away, and I felt little more than a worker ant on
> that project.

[Just] before my computing time. But then I sat for 20 minutes in front
of the floppy drive for the C-64 not knowing how to close the door after
inserting a disk.
 
> I needed a few years with a Mac (SE/30) to build a conceptual horizon
> from which to back-step into the modularity of the unix world.

The SE 30 was a fantastic machine. I found the receipt for one from my
uni dept - it was over $5000 in 1991 - and that was a LOT - but we used
it for years. I believe there are still some working ones about - more
as a curiosity than anything else, but they were very advanced for their
time.

> My first
> go was installing openBSD on an LC; I still have that old box. Next was
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it to fly the www - a bit of a thrill, a SE/30 being the machine the
> original internet proposal was typed on.

I can understand that. It was the 8 core MacPro of its time. I bought
this one as I believe it will be upgradeable for a very long time.

> But – I'm pleased to say – I have heaps of research to do these days,
> and as I'm in Arts/Social Sciences, there's little excuse to play with
> those old boxen. A project to present History in a more fluid hypertext
> environment is still on, but one really needs full-scale browsers to do
> that, and I'm envious of your Big Mac. My trusty G4 will have to do me
> a while longer, unless some publisher gets an attack of generosity! Ha!

I am a professional historian by trade so I understand where you're
going with that. I developed a good system to research and publish using
the net and computing power - might be interesting to have a private
discussion on what you are doing at some stage. I can't imagine any of
this is riveting stuff for anyone else! :)

Cheers,

Rifty

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David Ross - 09 Sep 2007 22:43 GMT
> I am a professional historian by trade so I understand where you're
> going with that. I developed a good system to research and publish using
> the net and computing power - might be interesting to have a private
> discussion on what you are doing at some stage. I can't imagine any of
> this is riveting stuff for anyone else! :)

Actually I find it quite interesting - the rise of the IBMs was an
interesting event in that the system was inferior to the Mac. (yep, I
was one of those that went beta video too)

As an early user of Macs (around 1985 MacSE then LCII - 5400 - 7300 -
and now iMac I often found it difficult to introduce them into the
workplace, though on most occasions did so on the basis of easy use and
easy to train staff in their use.

The most common objections were the small screen and the (supposed) lack
of software.

Later on price did become a major factor - especially when management
committee members could see that for less $$ they could buy a bigger
(screen) computer!

David - enjoying the thread
Rifty - 19 Sep 2007 02:49 GMT
[Responding to older postings after a break!]

> > I am a professional historian by trade so I understand where you're
> > going with that. I developed a good system to research and publish using
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> interesting event in that the system was inferior to the Mac. (yep, I
> was one of those that went beta video too)

Yes, and I remember how IBM type computers with makers like Amstrad got
things well under way for that system by producing twin floppy drives
that gave you flexibility at that time not possible for the price on a
Mac *in some respects*!  They were very boring visually but with a modem
you could access email and news and download programs like PCOutline -
which was a brilliant little program.  When they got hard drives and
computing power beyond the 640k(?) limit and won their battle with Apple
over Windows, everything changed.
 
> As an early user of Macs (around 1985 MacSE then LCII - 5400 - 7300 -
> and now iMac I often found it difficult to introduce them into the
> workplace, though on most occasions did so on the basis of easy use and
> easy to train staff in their use.

It has been shown countless times that the savings in not having to
provide tech assistance with Macs outweighed the cheaper prices by
heaps.  But that didn't stop people committed to their environment from
insisting on keeping it. It's really a determination to hold onto a
familiar environment that keeps the loyalty of most people, and that
hasn't changed.  I suspect that now PCs require less maintenance than
they did as a lot of problems can be sorted by the software - but god
help you if you have something wrong that is outside that paradigm as
you will need someone who really knows what they are doing to fix it.

> The most common objections were the small screen and the (supposed) lack
> of software.

The screens were indeed small, but very sharp, and yes, software
development was IBM based for the most part, except in particular areas
like graphics.

> Later on price did become a major factor - especially when management
> committee members could see that for less $$ they could buy a bigger
> (screen) computer!

Yes. It was often as simple as that.

> David - enjoying the thread

Cheers,

Rifty
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Emma Grey - 10 Sep 2007 16:09 GMT
> > But – I'm pleased to say – I have heaps of research to do these days,
> > and as I'm in Arts/Social Sciences, there's little excuse to play with
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> discussion on what you are doing at some stage. I can't imagine any of
> this is riveting stuff for anyone else! :)

Rifty, I was going to say "it's not that far off-topic" and in the
interim a small chorus has joined in. However, my claim was of a
different nature and leads in another direction.

One of my reservations about developing a HTML base for ... well it
might be any subject really ... is that it might encourage a further
move away from *reading books*. I'm sure from a teaching perspective
you'll agree with me that the last thing one wants to do is HELP the
reduction in attention span, and the quest for the qWiki answer.

The other matter on this menu is those (horrid) postmodern publishers
who talk about 'the death of the book' in a 'positive' tone! One I
heard recently was musing on the dream of a reading equivalent of the
iPod ­ where there is a device one feeds with whatever data one likes,
rather than have to chop down trees for every publication, guess the
size of the print run, and then consign endless reams to the
remaindered tables, and finally complete the cycle ­ and recycle. From
a sustainability perspective, that is a hefty argument.

But all those who deal with any amount of text, that I know, agree that
you just can't read satisfactorily off a screen. Proofing is pointless
until you have hard copy, because for some mysterious reason, the
experience of paper-in-the-hand is radically different. It's not a
matter of us relics born before PCs; those who feel there is no
difference have failed to realise there is another realm of reading, of
cognition and comprehension, BEYOND the screen.

Now, if they can get an iPad [!] that looks and acts like virtual
paper, and can emulate the book effect ... then who knows. But I find
myself divided.

On the one hand there are the *fantastic* opportunities for text
searching (THAT is my principle driver) when text is ascii, but on the
other ­ how does one design a database that will still encourage people
to make the effort to draw the benefits of sitting and staring at print
on paper, feeling the thing on your hand, owning/possessing your copy
... and most of all, reading in depth, at length.

Maybe there something like the difference between analog and digital
clocks. A digital readout will give you the time, exactly perhaps, but
a clock face will show you where you are in the passage of the day. You
FEEL where you are. With a digital readout, I have to translate to get
the feel.

Not sure I'm not rambling here! Anyway, am I just being a
'medievalist'? I'm certainly not a Luddite in any way whatsoever. But,
but, but ... the danger with computers is they do certain things so
very well, and so quickly, and so easily, that it's all too tempting to
direct our efforts in a way that suits those convenient avenues. We end
up shaping ourselves to fit the way the machine works ­ become merely
an organic front-end. Sterile. We'll lose those weird and often
unexpected things that make humans human. Leaps of logic. Wonderful
pointlessness. Creativity for the joy of it. For no reason.

I was considering a Lingustics thesis at one point, concerned with the
failure of computers to genuinely understand the purpose of
conversation. I was going to entitle it: "If a computer could speak,
how would it know what to say?". And ­ I might add ­ why should it
bother?

I don't think this is off-topic. With just one exception, everybody I
know who works creatively with computers has a Mac, and if they have a
PC too, it's because that's necessary, and Linux is for fun!

Think different, think outside the circle. That's always been the Mac
pitch. It's always been the minority who THINK.

I wonder if that was Apple's reason for charging so much for those SEs?
Rifty - 19 Sep 2007 02:49 GMT
[Responding to older postings after a break!]

> > > But â•" I'm pleased to say â•" I have heaps of research to do these days,
> > > and as I'm in Arts/Social Sciences, there's little excuse to play with
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> interim a small chorus has joined in. However, my claim was of a
> different nature and leads in another direction.

Nice that it IS of interest to the smart people!  :)

> One of my reservations about developing a HTML base for ... well it
> might be any subject really ... is that it might encourage a further
> move away from *reading books*. I'm sure from a teaching perspective
> you'll agree with me that the last thing one wants to do is HELP the
> reduction in attention span, and the quest for the qWiki answer.

I agree with you pretty much, having a library of much loved books now
that is a problem to me in physical size - but I have to say that I
don't sit down and read books anywhere near as much as I used to, except
in airport lounges where I catch up on much of my reading of that type.
Wikipedia (etc) has been the death of good writing and researching in my
field where its use has not been controlled and where people do not
understand the nature of my discipline to begin with. Students are
coming through whose idea of research is equivalent to the 8 second grab
on the TV news - no context, simplistic attention grabbing, and
generalised muck that is a torture to read in essays.

> The other matter on this menu is those (horrid) postmodern publishers
> who talk about 'the death of the book' in a 'positive' tone! One I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> remaindered tables, and finally complete the cycle – and recycle. From
> a sustainability perspective, that is a hefty argument.

When you have a book like _A Suitable Boy_ in your lap, the idea of
hardware to run a small electronic book has its appeal. You can change
font size to suit yourself and it has a sensible weight in a bag. But I
do understand the appeal of the paper book itself, and I suspect it will
be a very long time before they disappear in the form we understand and
appreciate them. I do feel, though, that this change to an electronic
format is as inevitable as switching from a quill to a biro, in the
longer term. The pattern has already been set with the way kids now do
assignments.
 
> But all those who deal with any amount of text, that I know, agree that
> you just can't read satisfactorily off a screen.

I'm not so sure of that with people who are used to reading from
screens.

> Proofing is pointless
> until you have hard copy, because for some mysterious reason, the
> experience of paper-in-the-hand is radically different. It's not a
> matter of us relics born before PCs; those who feel there is no
> difference have failed to realise there is another realm of reading, of
> cognition and comprehension, BEYOND the screen.

I agree with this up to a point, as I know how many times I have read an
article I am writing on the screen, get it 'perfect' and then print it,
and immediately start to make changes to the print copy.  But I wonder
how real this difference is? If we had a perfect graphic representation
of a document on a good screen, I wonder what the difference then is
between reading that and the paper copy?  I wonder if it IS simply a
'relic' issue?  I suspect that hasn't been tested yet with those of the
electronic age who rarely go to print books but avidly read from the
screen.
 
> Now, if they can get an iPad [!] that looks and acts like virtual
> paper, and can emulate the book effect ... then who knows. But I find
> myself divided.

We all do who know the pleasure as kids of flopping on a bed with a
storybook and reading our eyes out.  But I suspect we can emulate
without much trouble the way the author wanted us to see their piece of
work, whatever it is - pdf and all that - or graphic images. Yes, I know
it's not the same!

> On the one hand there are the *fantastic* opportunities for text
> searching (THAT is my principle driver) when text is ascii, but on the
> other – how does one design a database that will still encourage people
> to make the effort to draw the benefits of sitting and staring at print
> on paper, feeling the thing on your hand, owning/possessing your copy
> ... and most of all, reading in depth, at length.

This is of course the difference that is absolutely critical in research
- being able to search the document electronically. I happen to have
been in a field in my last years of academic researching where
practically all the documents required are in electronic archives and
where books a few years old lose their relevance very quickly. The
wonderful searchability of ASCII based materials opens up new worlds in
research, but the process can be fundamentally different  from reading a
book - each has its limitations. Look, e.g., at Necromancer for the PC
(which my nephew helped to develop, clever boy), or some of the programs
for Mac (like Yep?) that take a bundle of pdfs and with keywords create
a database. That's a powerful tool, but you and I probably agree that it
can be a very misleading one if each of those pdfs hasn't been read
first as discrete pieces with their own identity and purpose.  You can
lose context very easily and you can end up writing something that is a
puree of other people's work.

> Maybe there something like the difference between analog and digital
> clocks. A digital readout will give you the time, exactly perhaps, but
> a clock face will show you where you are in the passage of the day. You
> FEEL where you are. With a digital readout, I have to translate to get
> the feel.

Know what you mean. My stepson probably doesn't!

> Not sure I'm not rambling here! Anyway, am I just being a
> 'medievalist'? I'm certainly not a Luddite in any way whatsoever. But,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> unexpected things that make humans human. Leaps of logic. Wonderful
> pointlessness. Creativity for the joy of it. For no reason.

Well said. That is indeed the dilemma. That's why novelists have
software that often is as simple as a primitive word processor with a
few necessary refinements specifically to enhance their writing. Using
Necromancer and a few good pdfs, I could write a reasonably convincing
article on a subject I have no expertise in, and convince others with
that written piece that I knew what I was talking about (as long as I
did not subject myself to personal questioning on it!)  That is the sort
of danger that we face in research now, as evidenced by the success of
some gobbledegook programs in getting people invitations to conferences!

> I was considering a Lingustics thesis at one point, concerned with the
> failure of computers to genuinely understand the purpose of
> conversation. I was going to entitle it: "If a computer could speak,
> how would it know what to say?". And – I might add – why should it
> bother?

The (identical) twin brother of my nephew who helped develop Necromancer
is a Professor of Linguistics at Tokyo University, teaching Japanese,
Korean, Chinese and English linguistics to Japanese students... maybe
the twins need to get together on that one!

> I don't think this is off-topic. With just one exception, everybody I
> know who works creatively with computers has a Mac, and if they have a
> PC too, it's because that's necessary, and Linux is for fun!

The difference between PCs and Macs as creative machines has narrowed,
and a good computer is a good computer, but I simply cannot bring myself
to work in a PC environment when I have a Mac with all the software I
need at hand, and I always go for it. If I try film or graphic editing
on a PC, I keep coming back to my Mac programs, even though Photoshop
and InDesign and Final Cut Studio Pro are to all intents and purposes
identical on both.

> Think different, think outside the circle. That's always been the Mac
> pitch. It's always been the minority who THINK.

I agree!....  I think.... :)

> I wonder if that was Apple's reason for charging so much for those SEs?

They knew they had the best. They simply didn't see Windows for PCs
coming. That was their mistake, and the world has been paying for it
ever since with inferior operating systems on 90% of the world's
computers.  But we can be grateful for that too - no need to download
daily the latest anti-virus software etc.... - sometimes it's nice not
being big enough to be noticed by jerks who we don't want messing with
our computers....

Rifty
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David Morrison - 21 Sep 2007 17:01 GMT
> > But all those who deal with any amount of text, that I know, agree that
> > you just can't read satisfactorily off a screen.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> electronic age who rarely go to print books but avidly read from the
> screen.

I've often wondered why it seems more difficult to read text on a screen than
on paper. There are some obvious reasons. For example, until recently, screens
were CRTs, which was like looking at a light bulb. No wonder our eyes got
tired. LCDs are a bit better in this respect.

But I suspect the real reasons are more subtle, and associated with the way we
read. The printing industry has hundreds of years of experience that
contributes to the way the printed word appears. Some interesting points are:

1. People think that we read by looking at the letters. In fact, we read by
looking at the overall shape of a word and recognising that shape. You have
probably noticed that all upper case text requires more effort to read than
lower case. This is because lower case text has more variation in the shape of
the word. Upper case is usually just a rectangle, whereas lower case has
ascenders and descenders on letters that make its shape more distinctive.

2. Words are defined by the spaces between letters. The gap allows us to
automatically recognise that there is a new word, and begin to recognise the
shape of the new word. Now sometimes fonts leave quite large spaces between
the letters of a word. The fixed pitch fonts are a classic example. If it is
not easy to distinguish the beginning of a word, our eyes have to hunt around
to find each new word. Serif fonts are helpful in this respect, as they tend
to join adjacent letters together and help to make the shape of the word.
Sans-serif fonts, OTOH, can leave small gaps between letters of a word which
make the eye work a bit harder to distinguish the beginning of the next word.

3. If you look at a newspaper, you will see that it is made up of a lot of
fairly narrow columns. Newspaper publishers, you would think, would want to
get as many words as possible on a page, and all these columns waste space
where they are right justified inside each column. Why not just have one long
line across the whole page? The reason is that when reading, the eye gets to
the end of a line, then tracks back to the beginning of the next line. If the
line is too long, the eye often makes a mistake tracking back, and will go
back to the start of the same line, or to lines further down the page. It
turns out that the eye is happiest with lines that are about 10-12 words long.

All of these things are subtle, even minor issues. But they contribute to the
work they eye has to do to perform the act of reading. Over a few paragraphs,
the extra effort is probably negligible. If you are reading a book, however,
these factors become very significant. That's why you rarely see books in all
upper case, using sans-serif fonts, or with very wide pages. (There are
exceptions, of course, where publishers are trying for an effect. For example,
sans-serif fonts tend to look more modern which might be something the
publisher wants to achieve, even at the expense of ease of reading. Magazines
often use sans-serif fonts since the articles are rarely long enough to cause
eye strain.)
------
Now that background is intended to demonstrate that there are subtle forces at
work. In considering my own experience reading on a screen and on paper, I
have a few observations about the difference between paper and screen.

Firstly, even though screens are getting better, they rarely have the density
of printed text. A resolution of 100 dots per inch does not compare with the
2400+ dots per inch of a typesetter and printing press. This allows more
definition to the shape of the letters, although as stated above, the shape of
the letters is not really important. What might be important is the spacing
between the letters, and particularly the space between the lines. (Points 2
and 3 above.)

Secondly, there is the physical structure of the text being read. A book is
made up of a number of distinct units called pages. You can look at it and say
"I have read a third of the book" or "That interesting bit was about half way"
or "I remember reading that at the bottom of a right-hand page". You can stick
your finger or several fingers in between the pages and flip back a few pages
to check something. You can even dog-ear a page or write on it.

On a screen, the text is continuous. There is nothing to indicate how much you
have read (other than the scroll bar, but this requires conscious action to
note where it is). Memory of where in a document something was is more
difficult to achieve. There is no way (at present) to provide those temporary
or permanent markers.

Thirdly, at present screens are not shaped in a natural reading way. For the
line length reasons above, books tend to be printed in portrait mode. This
gives a reasonable length of text to read and absorb without interruption to
the reading process. Screens, however, are usually in landscape mode. With
reasonable sized text, you only get about half a page before you have to drag
the scroll bar or hit the next page button. Maybe it is just many years of
training, but flipping over a page is something that requires no
concentration. Finding the mouse or the next page key and clicking requires
enough effort to be a distraction from what you are reading.

I'd be interested to know how other people feel about these thoughts...

Cheers

David
Mike Dee - 09 Sep 2007 13:00 GMT
> I needed a few years with a Mac (SE/30) to build a conceptual
> horizon from which to back-step into the modularity of the unix
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> bit of a thrill, a SE/30 being the machine the original internet
> proposal was typed on.

I too had a Mac SE/30, but I didn't own it until it was well passed
its so called "use by date", sometime back in the late '90s... sadly
it developed leaky pot syndrome soon afterwards. - I never was able to
resurrect it not having the luxury of replacement motherboards, so you
have done very well IMO.

I do have something that may outlive all SE/30's in existence tho'.
Its a well preserved BYTE magazine (February 1989 issue). Featured on
the cover is the SE/30 - in an almost gleaming off-white colour
(before oxygenating into beige) with the auspicious leading title:

"The New Mac SE/30
Mac II power
with
an SE price"

And the cover story has this title:

"The Mac SE
Takes Off"

A very good in-depth article too, with full blown pix of motherboard,
plus internals of the SE/30 with case removed, plus benchmark test
results.

Perhaps of interest is the pricing (in US $) as this article was
written pre-release:

"The Mac SE/30 with 2 MB RAM + 40 MB hard drive will cost $5069 and
the SE/30 with 4 MB RAM + 80 MB hard drive will cost $6369.
As with most Apple pricing structures, neither will include a
keyboard".

<G> :-D

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dee

Rifty - 09 Sep 2007 13:21 GMT
> "The Mac SE/30 with 2 MB RAM + 40 MB hard drive will cost $5069 and
> the SE/30 with 4 MB RAM + 80 MB hard drive will cost $6369.
> As with most Apple pricing structures, neither will include a
> keyboard".

Hi Mike - actually, it is my firm belief that the overpricing of Macs at
the time - when they certainly had the best and most exciting computers
on the market by far - was what allowed Gates to creep in with cheap
MS-DOS PCs and gradually lock out the Macs once they got Windows. In my
view, Apple got greedy early in the 1990s, and it has paid the price
ever since.

BUT, on the upside, using the best desktop computers in the world now
(Macs of course!) with only 10% of the market pretty much frees us from
the interminable updates to anti-virus software and allows us to *know*
our exclusive club is peopled by those who appreciate good computers
when they use them....

Rifty
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Mike Dee - 09 Sep 2007 14:12 GMT
>> "The Mac SE/30 with 2 MB RAM + 40 MB hard drive will cost $5069
>> and the SE/30 with 4 MB RAM + 80 MB hard drive will cost $6369.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> allows us to *know* our exclusive club is peopled by those who
> appreciate good computers when they use them....

Hi Rifty

I'm so glad that you didn't pick up on (or were kind enough to ignore)
my "before oxygenating into beige" comment. I really did mean
*oxidising* there, y'know? ;-)

I will disagree a little on the overpricing bit, tho'.
I think it was more a case of IBM adopting MS-DOS as their OS, and
clever marketing (plus myth perpetuation) of IBM being the business
machine and Apple/Mac the toy for those who weren't serious about
business.

The price for SE/30 at the time was comparable to other manufacturers.

An ad in the same BYTE mag, for a top of the range Dell which was
phasing out it's 286 range, this is for a new 386 ($US):

----------------------------
Dell
New 25 MHz 386 System 325
Standard Features:
Intel 80386 running at 25 mHz
1 MB RAM (expandable to 16 MB)
32Kb RAM cache
16 bit video adapter
Enhanced 100 key keyboard
5.25" 1.2MB OR 3.5" 1.44 MB floppy drive

*Optional*
25 MHz Intel 80387 math coprocessor

Price:
150MB HD, Mono $6799, VGA Color Plus $7099
322MB HD, Mono $8799, VGA Color Plus $9099
----------------------------

Given the expansibility of the SE/30 (and capability to run a
[supported] Mac OS up to 7.6.1?) I think it was well priced in
comparison, for the time of it's introduction.

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dee

Rifty - 19 Sep 2007 02:49 GMT
[Responding to older postings after a break!]

> Hi Rifty
>
> I'm so glad that you didn't pick up on (or were kind enough to ignore)
> my "before oxygenating into beige" comment. I really did mean
> *oxidising* there, y'know? ;-)

If you hadn't mentioned it, I wouldn't have noticed. (That's a worry!)
:)
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> machine and Apple/Mac the toy for those who weren't serious about
> business.

I think you could make a reasonable argument that way - the
business-everything else divide was very powerful then.

> The price for SE/30 at the time was comparable to other manufacturers.

If they could have made it possible for individuals to buy at a
reasonable price and not just institutions that could afford the higher
one, it would have worked.

> An ad in the same BYTE mag, for a top of the range Dell which was
> phasing out it's 286 range, this is for a new 386 ($US):
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> 322MB HD, Mono $8799, VGA Color Plus $9099
> ----------------------------

When was that?

> Given the expansibility of the SE/30 (and capability to run a
> [supported] Mac OS up to 7.6.1?) I think it was well priced in
> comparison, for the time of it's introduction.

it was the Mac Pluses that were well priced - and Jobs hasn't made the
same mistake again with this - the first iMac line was brilliant for the
time, sexy (then!) and affordable.

Rifty
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Mike Dee - 26 Sep 2007 06:55 GMT
> [Responding to older postings after a break!]

Ditto ;-)

[...]
> > I will disagree a little on the overpricing bit, tho'.
> > I think it was more a case of IBM adopting MS-DOS as their OS, and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> reasonable price and not just institutions that could afford the higher
> one, it would have worked.

Compared to the mono Dell, the SE/30 was similarly specced and priced.

OMG I really do have to clean out my old PC mag collection! ;-)

I've got an ancient APC mag here (April 1987) and it has reviews on two
of the latest Macs available at the time. The Mac SE and The Mac II.
Prices in Australian dollars:

Mac SE
$5320 without a hard drive.
$6905 with 20MB hard drive
Standard keyboard add $240
Enhanced keyboard add $440
No mention of RAM but IIRC they shipped with 1 MB standard and were
expandable to 4 MB RAM.

Mac II
$7693 without hard drive or monitor
$10,980 with 20 MB drive and RGB display
Video card add $972
Standard keyboard add $240
Enhanced keyboard add $440
Again no mention of RAM

Hmmm... if the Mac SE buyers held off for another year or so they
could've got an SE/30 for an SE price (and faster than the Mac II).
 
> > An ad in the same BYTE mag, for a top of the range Dell which was
> > phasing out it's 286 range, this is for a new 386 ($US):
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> When was that?

Info was from BYTE magazine (February 1989 issue), prices in US dollars.
Same issue reviewed the SE/30.

> > Given the expansibility of the SE/30 (and capability to run a
> > [supported] Mac OS up to 7.6.1?) I think it was well priced in
> > comparison, for the time of it's introduction.

> it was the Mac Pluses that were well priced - and Jobs hasn't made the
> same mistake again with this - the first iMac line was brilliant for the
> time, sexy (then!) and affordable.

The Mac Pluses were affordable Macs at the time (I believe the Mac Plus
also holds the record for being the longest Mac model in continuous
production). I agree about the iMacs, they were sensational looking when
they first appeared.

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dee

 
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