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Mac Forum / Country Specific / Australian Mac Group / October 2004PC user contemplating an iBook
I'm contemplating getting an iBook as my employer is offering salary-sacrifice laptops and i'm not the keen on a windows-laptop. Current choice is the 14" ibook + DVD/R. Primary usage will be for light email, web, word-processing duties, but will be called upon for : - scanning (epson 2580 scanner) - image manipulation + working with digital camera - burning DVDs from photos and video footage - potentially taking footage from DV cam From tinkering with a mac at the retailers, i've learnt a few things, but still have a few queries .. - mac mouse doesn't seem to have a scroll wheel. Will 3rd party mice work with a mac ( e.g logitec ) - how flexible is iDVD/iMovie. What's involved in turning a selection of 100 photos into a slide show on a DVD ? I recently use uLead's Win32 DVD tools. It allowed me to select 50 photos, pick a transition and it did the rest. Can iMovie or IDVD do that for me ? - is it feasible to use iDVD to create an ISO DVD image on a hard-drive, and then burn that image to disc elsewhere, either on another mac or a PC or linux box ? I ask that as a dvd-burner for my PC costs less than the add-on for the iBook. - networking. Home network is linux + bsd boxes. How well does a mac play with NFS and SMB shares ? ( I know _nothing_ about how a mac treats networked resources) - networking again. Can a mac act as a CUPS printing client ? Our printer is networked and shared using CUPS. - is their a rough guide for comparing G4/G5 performance to AMD/Intel performance ? e.g. a P4 2000 is roughly comparable to a Athlon 2000. What would the equivalent G4 or G4 chip be ? I realise there is more to performance than the CPU, but it does provide a rough guide as to what sort of performance to expect. I'm sure i'll have more questions .. I can help with some things: > - mac mouse doesn't seem to have a scroll wheel. Will 3rd party mice work > with a mac ( e.g logitec ) Yes - left/right button, scroll wheel, etc., either with drivers direct from the manufacturer, or using the shareware USB Overdrive. Even esoteric things like a Targus presentation remote work straight out of the box. > - how flexible is iDVD/iMovie. What's involved in turning a selection of 100 > photos into a slide show on a DVD ? I recently use uLead's Win32 DVD tools. > It allowed me to select 50 photos, pick a transition and it did the rest. > Can iMovie or IDVD do that for me ? Yes. iMovie will also intermix camcorder footage with movies from digital still cameras and QuickTime imports. > - is it feasible to use iDVD to create an ISO DVD image on a hard-drive, and > then burn that image to disc elsewhere, either on another mac or a PC or > linux box ? I ask that as a dvd-burner for my PC costs less than the add-on > for the iBook. I don't think so - I believe iDVD is geared to built-in Apple drives. It can be tinkered with to write to non-original DVD writers of similar manufacture to the Apple built-ins (e.g. Pioneer drives) but an ISO sounds very unlikely. > - networking. Home network is linux + bsd boxes. How well does a mac play > with NFS and SMB shares ? ( I know _nothing_ about how a mac treats > networked resources) The guts of the Mac OS is BSD Unix - it does SMB out of the box in an Apple implementation. If you don't like it, you can roll your own Samba using the latest source and the tools on the OS X CDs. NFS is not something I know about. > - networking again. Can a mac act as a CUPS printing client ? Our printer is > networked and shared using CUPS. Mac OS X uses CUPS as its printing architecture. You can type a network address when you add a new printer if you wish. > - is their a rough guide for comparing G4/G5 performance to AMD/Intel > performance ? e.g. a P4 2000 is roughly comparable to a Athlon 2000. What > would the equivalent G4 or G4 chip be ? I realise there is more to > performance than the CPU, but it does provide a rough guide as to what sort > of performance to expect. Multiply G4 speed by 1.5 or 2, roughly - 1 GHz G4 feels like a 1.5 GHz P4 to me. There are many, many variables, not least of which is that the Windows GUI is optimised for instant response speed whereas the OS X rendering uses a full layered, scaled composition system. It won't scroll as fast but you get unbeatable UI gifts like text of beautiful clarity, and Expose (press F9 or F11 on a Mac in a shop - if you missed it, hold down shift while you press the F key). > I'm sure i'll have more questions .. Good luck! The near-total absence of viruses and other malware takes some getting used to. Also the fluidity of switching between apps - I tend to leave a dozen open at any time and just hop between them to do jobs. You sort of forget you're using a computer. MK. > I can help with some things: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > esoteric things like a Targus presentation remote work straight out of > the box. - cool. >> - how flexible is iDVD/iMovie. What's involved in turning a selection of >> 100 photos into a slide show on a DVD ? I recently use uLead's Win32 DVD [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yes. iMovie will also intermix camcorder footage with movies from > digital still cameras and QuickTime imports. - but what about still photos ? I think i might go back to the mac shop one more time and get someone to show me .. >> - is it feasible to use iDVD to create an ISO DVD image on a hard-drive, >> and then burn that image to disc elsewhere, either on another mac or a PC [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > using the latest source and the tools on the OS X CDs. NFS is not > something I know about. NFS is unix's native networked file system. Like SMB is for windows and AFS is for the mac. >> - networking again. Can a mac act as a CUPS printing client ? Our printer >> is networked and shared using CUPS. > > Mac OS X uses CUPS as its printing architecture. You can type a network > address when you add a new printer if you wish. excellent. >> - is their a rough guide for comparing G4/G5 performance to AMD/Intel >> performance ? e.g. a P4 2000 is roughly comparable to a Athlon 2000. What [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > clarity, and Expose (press F9 or F11 on a Mac in a shop - if you missed > it, hold down shift while you press the F key). Spotted that .. that was nice. >> I'm sure i'll have more questions .. > > Good luck! The near-total absence of viruses and other malware takes That's one of the reasons my home network is all non-windows. > some getting used to. Also the fluidity of switching between apps - I > tend to leave a dozen open at any time and just hop between them to do > jobs. You sort of forget you're using a computer. > > MK. > Good luck! The near-total absence of viruses and other malware takes > some getting used to. That's really just a lack of people writing them due to such a small user-base really. Apple's security really does leave a lot lacking... PD  SignaturePaul Day Web: www.bur.st/~paul GPG Key ID: 7FF655A8 > That's really just a lack of people writing them due to such a small > user-base really. Apple's security really does leave a lot lacking... Didn't claim otherwise. The fact that there are essentially no OS X viruses remains true, and a major plus. MK. > Didn't claim otherwise. The fact that there are essentially no OS X > viruses remains true, and a major plus. Yes, very true. :) PD SignaturePaul Day Web: www.bur.st/~paul GPG Key ID: 7FF655A8 > > Good luck! The near-total absence of viruses and other malware takes > > some getting used to. > > That's really just a lack of people writing them due to such a small > user-base really. Apple's security really does leave a lot lacking... No, it's a matter of a better designed operating system, with most services turned off by default. Microsoft allowed programs to be downloaded an executed with no real permission from the user (active-x was a big problem). Their integration of the browser with the operating system is apparently a cause of many problems as well. Dale Signaturedstanbro@spam.o.matic.bigpond.net.au > No, it's a matter of a better designed operating system, Better designed? :) Lagre chunks of Darwin and MacOSX appears to have just been thrown together without a true understanding of how the individual Unix compements interact in my most humble opinion. More importantly, Apple didn't design the core of the OS (where the fundamental security should, but doesn't really, happen). It's a hotch-potch of a whole heap of other OSs and Apple's lack of understanding of that shines through. eg, their lack of mlock() for critical authentication programs or a lack of encrypted swap: ever taken a look at how many times your login, keychain and FileVault passwords get written to disk in /private/var/vm? What's the point of the "secure" home directory file encryption (FileVault) if it's as trivial to break as reading a file off the hard-disk? Screen-saver lock will help you? Not likely: reboot and boot -s or boot cdrom to examine the files before /etc/rc clears them. Think your OpenFirmware password will help you? Think again: remove/add some RAM and reboot - viola, password reset. There even used to be a simple way to crash the screen-saver (drop you back to the desktop) or crash the login window (drop you back to a root command prompt). And don't get me started on the security draw-backs of Apple's magic FireWire. :> > with most services turned off by default. /etc/hostconfig, /System/Library/StartupItems/ and /Library/StartupItems/ tend to disagree with you quite strongly there. :) > Microsoft allowed programs to be downloaded an executed with no real > permission from the user (active-x was a big problem). That sounds awfully similar to the problem in OSX that was _eventually_ fixed in Security Update 2004-06-07. :) "Description: Bundles using the CoreFoundation CFPlugIn facilities can include directions to automatically load plugin executables. With a specially crafted bundle this could also occur for privileged programs, permitting a local privilege escalation." > Their integration of the browser with the operating system is apparently > a cause of many problems as well. If you insist. ;) P "Whinger - but still prefers OSX over any other OS for his desktop" D SignaturePaul Day Web: www.bur.st/~paul GPG Key ID: 7FF655A8 > > No, it's a matter of a better designed operating system, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > a look at how many times your login, keychain and FileVault passwords > get written to disk in /private/var/vm? I think they have addressed this issue in Tiger. I was mainly talking about external access (via a network) which is where OS X is better. > What's the point of the "secure" home directory file encryption > (FileVault) if it's as trivial to break as reading a file off the > hard-disk? I didn't know the encryption had been broken. I'ld be surprised. If you gain access to the disc, aren't the files still secure? > Screen-saver lock will help you? Not likely: reboot and boot > -s or boot cdrom to examine the files before /etc/rc clears them. Think > your OpenFirmware password will help you? Think again: remove/add some > RAM and reboot - viola, password reset. Not good! You do need access to the internals of the machine. Some can be locked down, but not all of them (e.g. the new iMac). Most (all?) of the professional machines have case locks however. > There even used to be a simple way to crash the screen-saver (drop you > back to the desktop) or crash the login window (drop you back to a root > command prompt). > > And don't get me started on the security draw-backs of Apple's magic > FireWire. :> Can you lock firewire target mode by using Open Firmware? > > with most services turned off by default. > > /etc/hostconfig, /System/Library/StartupItems/ and > /Library/StartupItems/ tend to disagree with you quite strongly there. > :) My /etc/hostconfig only has only a few things turned on, most of those i did. Similarly for System/library/startuptimes /Library/StartUpItems has only the things that i've asked for. So i disagree with you here. > > Microsoft allowed programs to be downloaded an executed with no real > > permission from the user (active-x was a big problem). [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > specially crafted bundle this could also occur for privileged programs, > permitting a local privilege escalation." Except microsoft -designed- it to be that way. The problem you mentioned was one that Apple had not noticed (or took a while to get fixed). > > Their integration of the browser with the operating system is apparently > > a cause of many problems as well. > > If you insist. ;) I was just replying what I had heard earlier. I've got a general idea of what people were talking about before, but I couldn't give specifics (thus why i said "apparently"). Dale Signaturedstanbro@spam.o.matic.bigpond.net.au > I was mainly talking about external access (via a network) which > is where OS X is better. Yes, I'll definitely give you that. By default, MacOSX doesn't come with many network services open to the world. Something other Unices (Solaris, most flavors of Linux other than Debian) still don't seem to have learnt. You manually have to turn on SMB/CIFS etc. > > What's the point of the "secure" home directory file encryption > > (FileVault) if it's as trivial to break as reading a file off the > > hard-disk? > > I didn't know the encryption had been broken. I'ld be surprised. The encryption hasn't been broken, no. AES and DES3 are still as safe as they've always been. There isn't a problem with the encryption itself. The issue is with Apple's implementation of authentication for the encryption. They don't lock the memory that does the authentication, hence the memory space where your passwords get stored gets swapped onto disk. A cracker can then read your passwords off with minimal effort. It's not like picking a needle in a hay-stack either - it's as simple as grep-ing for the word "password" in the swap files. eg, on my PowerBook with oodles of memory (ie, you wouldn't expect it to swap much to disk): root@grumble:/private/var/vm$ uptime 9:40 up 6 days, 21:49, 1 user, load averages: 0.19 0.21 0.22 root@grumble:/private/var/vm$ top <snip> PhysMem: 157M wired, 719M active, 384M inactive, 1.23G used, 18.3M free VM: 8.71G + 87.9M 648923(4) pageins, 284096(0) pageouts <snip> root@grumble:/private/var/vm$ strings swapfile* | grep -c <my login and keychain password> 28 That's 28 times my password has been swapped out of physical memory and written to the hard-disk. > If you gain access to the disc, aren't the files still secure? The passwords to those encrypted disk images _aren't_ though, so hence the contents themselves aren't either. Nor is your keychain or your login password. > Not good! You do need access to the internals of the machine. Some can > be locked down, but not all of them (e.g. the new iMac). > Most (all?) of the professional machines have case locks however. A Kensington lock doesn't stop someone getting access to the RAM in a PowerBook or iBook though and only provides a matter of seconds of inconvenience if you're trying to remove the machine. > > And don't get me started on the security draw-backs of Apple's magic > > FireWire. :> > > Can you lock firewire target mode by using Open Firmware? You can, but then obviously there are ways around the Open Firmware password too. However, that's not what I was referring to. Unlike USB, Firewire provides the client device with access to the physical memory on the host machine. ie, potentially a random person could wander up to a screensaver-locked Mac, plug in their iBook, suck down the entire contents of RAM or splat a few bits into the relevant memory space and crash the screensaver. > My /etc/hostconfig only has only a few things turned on, most of those > i did. Similarly for System/library/startuptimes > /Library/StartUpItems has only the things that i've asked for. > So i disagree with you here. By default, a fresh install leaves a whole heap of things turned on. The other one to check is your authentication and directory access settings. There was a nice vulnerability a while ago because Mac's left LDAP directory access turned on by default and blindly trusted LDAP server settings given by DHCP. Your average Mac user has no need for LDAP directory access... > > "Description: Bundles using the CoreFoundation CFPlugIn facilities can > > include directions to automatically load plugin executables. With a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Except microsoft -designed- it to be that way. The problem you mentioned > was one that Apple had not noticed (or took a while to get fixed). Microsoft design for user convenience, with security a secondary consideration. My point here is that Apple do that too, although not quite as badly. You don't want a user being pestered with a dialog box asking if it's ok to automatically run a program. Doing so was only implemented after a couple of months of public murmuring/whinging after the vulnerability was announced. PD SignaturePaul Day Web: www.bur.st/~paul GPG Key ID: 7FF655A8 > The issue is with Apple's implementation of authentication for the > encryption. They don't lock the memory that does the authentication, > hence the memory space where your passwords get stored gets swapped onto > disk. A cracker can then read your passwords off with minimal effort. > It's not like picking a needle in a hay-stack either - it's as simple as > grep-ing for the word "password" in the swap files. This was a big oversight by Apple. The sooner it's fixed the better. > The passwords to those encrypted disk images _aren't_ though, so hence > the contents themselves aren't either. Nor is your keychain or your [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > PowerBook or iBook though and only provides a matter of seconds of > inconvenience if you're trying to remove the machine. I hadn't thought of the portables (silly me!). They are more likely for others to get access too. > However, that's not what I was referring to. Unlike USB, Firewire > provides the client device with access to the physical memory on the > host machine. ie, potentially a random person could wander up to a > screensaver-locked Mac, plug in their iBook, suck down the entire > contents of RAM or splat a few bits into the relevant memory space and > crash the screensaver. Bleh! I hadn't realised that. > Microsoft design for user convenience, with security a secondary > consideration. My point here is that Apple do that too, although not > quite as badly. You don't want a user being pestered with a dialog box > asking if it's ok to automatically run a program. Doing so was only > implemented after a couple of months of public murmuring/whinging after > the vulnerability was announced. And they took quite a while to fix it. Interesting to see if they have changed their ways. Thanks for the info. Definitely learned new stuff... Dale Signaturedstanbro@spam.o.matic.bigpond.net.au > Thanks for the info. Definitely learned new stuff... You're welcome. :) I've just started writing a white-paper and presentation on Securing MacOSX as a Client OS for my employer as I can only find one paper out there that comes close to complete. I'll post it in here for feedback if anyone else is interested. PD SignaturePaul Day Web: www.bur.st/~paul GPG Key ID: 7FF655A8 > > Not good! You do need access to the internals of the machine. Some can > > be locked down, but not all of them (e.g. the new iMac). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > PowerBook or iBook though and only provides a matter of seconds of > inconvenience if you're trying to remove the machine. And I've just been pointed towards a fix for this (credit to Matt Johnstone, if he lurks in here) - completed undocumented by Apple of course. By enabling an OpenFirmware password, you disable firewire's physical memory access via the IOFireWireFamily kernel driver. From IOFireWireFamily-140.4.0/IOFireWireFamily.kmodproj/IOFireWireController.cpp: OSString * securityModeProperty = OSDynamicCast( OSString, options->getProperty("security-mode") ); if( securityModeProperty != NULL && strcmp("none", securityModeProperty->getCStringNoCopy()) != 0 ) { // set security mode to secure/permanent mode = kIOFWSecurityModeSecurePermanent; } PD SignaturePaul Day Web: www.bur.st/~paul GPG Key ID: 7FF655A8 > I'm contemplating getting an iBook as my employer is offering > salary-sacrifice laptops and i'm not the keen on a windows-laptop. Current [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > - mac mouse doesn't seem to have a scroll wheel. Will 3rd party mice work > with a mac ( e.g logitec ) Yes, I use a logitec mouse - the scroll wheel works fine, as does the right mouse button. I've mapped clicking the scroll wheel to expose, which is very handy. > - how flexible is iDVD/iMovie. What's involved in turning a selection of 100 > photos into a slide show on a DVD ? I recently use uLead's Win32 DVD tools. > It allowed me to select 50 photos, pick a transition and it did the rest. > Can iMovie or IDVD do that for me ? Yes, they can (I just started iDVD to check). > - is it feasible to use iDVD to create an ISO DVD image on a hard-drive, and > then burn that image to disc elsewhere, either on another mac or a PC or > linux box ? I ask that as a dvd-burner for my PC costs less than the add-on > for the iBook. don't know. > - networking. Home network is linux + bsd boxes. How well does a mac play > with NFS and SMB shares ? ( I know _nothing_ about how a mac treats > networked resources) ? I can connect to the SMB shares at work with my mac. > - networking again. Can a mac act as a CUPS printing client ? Our printer is > networked and shared using CUPS. Mac OS X uses CUPS, so it may be able to do that... > - is their a rough guide for comparing G4/G5 performance to AMD/Intel > performance ? e.g. a P4 2000 is roughly comparable to a Athlon 2000. What > would the equivalent G4 or G4 chip be ? I realise there is more to > performance than the CPU, but it does provide a rough guide as to what sort > of performance to expect. I'ld probably say that a 1.5 G4 is equivalent to a P4 2000 when running altivec code. Otherwise they are pretty slow. The iBooks have DDR ram, but the G4 processors don't take advantage of it. That being said I'm still -really- happy with my macs for the most part (OS X sometimes does pretty bad scheduling, but that doesn't happen very often). The introduction of the G5 finally sees a level of processor parity that Macs have not had for a looooong time. > I'm sure i'll have more questions .. Dale Signaturedstanbro@spam.o.matic.bigpond.net.au <snip> >> - is their a rough guide for comparing G4/G5 performance to AMD/Intel >> performance ? e.g. a P4 2000 is roughly comparable to a Athlon 2000. What [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The introduction of the G5 finally sees a level of processor parity > that Macs have not had for a looooong time. I played with a G5 iMac, and the speed of generic desktop tasks seemed reasonable, not startling, but reasonable. I wasn't really pushing it, the only time it seemed bog down was using iDVD and changing the default menu layout preferences. Interestingly that process was also very sluggish with uLead on XP. Perhaps there's a lot involved .. I searched around on the net to find some rough guides and found very little suprisingly. One article suggested 500Mhz G4 = 1300Mhz PIII, others suggested much more than that, your comment above suggests less. >> I'm sure i'll have more questions .. > > Dale > I played with a G5 iMac, and the speed of generic desktop tasks seemed > reasonable, not startling, but reasonable. I wasn't really pushing it, the > only time it seemed bog down was using iDVD and changing the default menu > layout preferences. Interestingly that process was also very sluggish with > uLead on XP. Perhaps there's a lot involved .. The speed of the G5 iMac apparently depends a lot on the speed setting in the system preferences. Typically it is set to automatic - set it to high and it goes quite fast (the problem shows up in benchmark programs - i'm not quite sure why it doesn't go into extra fast mode when pushed). > I searched around on the net to find some rough guides and found very little > suprisingly. One article suggested 500Mhz G4 = 1300Mhz PIII, others > suggested much more than that, your comment above suggests less. Some people are in denial about the speed of the G4 chip. When running altivec instructions (e.g. specialised apps like Photoshop) they are quite fast, but for general processing they aren't anything great. Generally they are memory starved because of the lack of DDR support in the processor (the G5 doesn't suffer from this). However I still find the older macs wonderfully useful. Dale Signaturedstanbro@spam.o.matic.bigpond.net.au > I played with a G5 iMac, and the speed of generic desktop tasks seemed > reasonable, not startling, but reasonable. I've always found OSX's interface slow and clunky. I have a whole bunch of tweaks/optimisations/features-turned-off on my machine as I prefer a much snappier environment over the eye-candy. > I searched around on the net to find some rough guides and found very little > suprisingly. One article suggested 500Mhz G4 = 1300Mhz PIII, That's a little far fetched. :> I've always worked on 1.33x the Mac's CPU speed, but really the rest of the hardware is just as important as the CPU speed, if not more important with the case of the older G4 PowerBooks: HDD speed, RAM/FSB speed, L2 CPU cache to make up for a lack of FSB speed etc. PD SignaturePaul Day Web: www.bur.st/~paul GPG Key ID: 7FF655A8 > I'm contemplating getting an iBook as my employer is offering > salary-sacrifice laptops and i'm not the keen on a windows-laptop. Current > choice is the 14" ibook + DVD/R. Why not go the 12"? The 14" is slightly faster, but beyond that there's nothing but extra bulk IMHO. It's the same res screen. > Primary usage will be for light email, web, word-processing duties, > but will be called upon for : > > - scanning (epson 2580 scanner) According to Epson, there are drivers for MacOSX for that scanner. > - mac mouse doesn't seem to have a scroll wheel. Will 3rd party mice work > with a mac ( e.g logitec ) Yep, I use a third-party bluetooth-3-button-scrollie-wheel-mini-mouse and it work no worries at all. > - networking. Home network is linux + bsd boxes. How well does a mac play > with NFS and SMB shares ? ( I know _nothing_ about how a mac treats > networked resources) It uses Samba with a funky wrapper. I NFS and SMB mount random stuff ot my Mac all the time. OSX ~= BSD at its heart. > - networking again. Can a mac act as a CUPS printing client ? Our printer is > networked and shared using CUPS. Sure can. Again, it uses CUPS at heart, but with an awful lot of cool stuff on top aswell. PD SignaturePaul Day Web: www.bur.st/~paul GPG Key ID: 7FF655A8 >> I'm contemplating getting an iBook as my employer is offering >> salary-sacrifice laptops and i'm not the keen on a windows-laptop. >> Current choice is the 14" ibook + DVD/R. > > Why not go the 12"? The 14" is slightly faster, but beyond that there's > nothing but extra bulk IMHO. It's the same res screen. The dvd-r didn't seem to be an option on the 12", and the bigger the screen the better, even if it is the same res. >> Primary usage will be for light email, web, word-processing duties, >> but will be called upon for : >> >> - scanning (epson 2580 scanner) > > According to Epson, there are drivers for MacOSX for that scanner. There seem to be some that shipped with my scanner too. >> - mac mouse doesn't seem to have a scroll wheel. Will 3rd party mice work >> with a mac ( e.g logitec ) [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Sure can. Again, it uses CUPS at heart, but with an awful lot of cool > stuff on top aswell. I think it's time to go shoppping .. > PD > The dvd-r didn't seem to be an option on the 12", Ah, that's true - I've never had the need to burn a DVD and tend to forget that one. > and the bigger the screen the better, even if it is the same res. *nod - if you're eyes are getting a little old or you find the smaller screen difficult to read, go for it. I know when I first looked at the 12" I thought "hm, awfully small..." but just forced myself to get used to it. No problems now. > There seem to be some that shipped with my scanner too. Always best to get the latest from the web-site. *shrug > > Sure can. Again, it uses CUPS at heart, but with an awful lot of cool > > stuff on top aswell. > > I think it's time to go shoppping .. Have fun. :) 10% discount if you're a full-time student/teacher/staff-member of something vaguely eudcational - or can borrow someone who is to buy it. PD SignaturePaul Day Web: www.bur.st/~paul GPG Key ID: 7FF655A8 |
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