Mac Forum / Country Specific / Australian Mac Group / July 2003

in that case, REALLY get a mac !

Basically I want to turn it on, do what I have to do then turn it off
without fiddling around.

Nuff said. Definitely Mac.

Basically I will be using it for Word Processing, basic statistics (Excel
stuff), Internet

An Intel or AMD based system is better.
Cheaper + it does what you want.

I am a MAC and x86 user too btw ;)

=bob=

I have both and all I can say is that a name brand PC running Office is much
better integrated than Mac OS X will ever be.

The fact that Microsoft has PC's covered from end to end says a lot about
the ease of use.

MacOS X is a pig to setup with some type of ADSL and other tid-bits. And you
can forget about easy tricks doing some future advanced stuff.

PC's can be upgraded cheaply, taught easily and cheaply and there are many
people on here that can help.

You will grow out of the "im a novice" really quick and before long you will
wonder why you would need a Mac since it can only be serviced by ONE
corporation compared to the hundreds of people who can service a PC.

Dont assume you will always be ignorant. That lasts about 2 weeks.

This is likely to happen if you rely on what *users* will tell you. This
is because a user is used to what he uses (of course!). There will be a
natural reaction against that which is strange and unfamiliar. Even
those who use both PCs and Macs are likely to be more used to one than
the other.

The alternative is to try to find the opinions of those who know more
about their relative merits than merely by being users, and moreover who
know from personal experience, rather than repeating what they have
heard, or read. Such people unfortunately are thin on the ground.

I have been working with computers since 1960, and with microprocessors
and personal computers since the early 70s. I have used both PCs and
Macs for many years, and seen them both grow up. I know them intimately
from the inside as well as the outside. I have seen both their hardware
and their software laid bare. I have programmed complete applications
for both PC and Mac.

So, what would I advise? Is it perhaps a case of six of one and half a
dozen of the other? It most certainly is not.

If I were spending my own money and had any choice at all, it would be a
Macintosh every time.

<ryako@hotmail.com> wrote in

Well, I'm after the same thing, with the same questions as you have..

The problem is that for 1500 Euros I can buy a 12" iBook which cover my
needs (I live in the Netherlands), but this is one of the cheaper models of
the laptop Mac series. For the same amount of money I can buy a much better
PC laptop, with infrared, 512 Megs of RAM, yes even with S-TFT screen
(better resolution). Especially with the 'newer' Pentium/AMD mobile
processors other advantages of apple over PC (longer batterylife, more quit,
weight) are minimal. What I really wanted was a powerbook 14", but this
model starts at about 2200 Euro's, which is way over my budget.

I would probably have gone for an iBook, till I found out about the
garuantee Apple is providing: 1 year, and if you want more: you'll have to
pay for it. Also stories about bad service in this respect didn't help me
convince that Apple really is giving that bit of extra service you would (I
would) expect.

Therefore, I've decided to buy an Asus laptop. They provide standard 2 yrs
Pickup and Return garuantee, good quality, good screen, and very complete.
Another reason why I chose this, is because I have some PC-peripherals, for
which I would have to buy adaptors: also more money. And if I want to do
some wireless interetting, I don't have to spend hundreds of Euro's for a
broadcaster (Airport), extra PC stuff is also lots and lots cheaper. The
problem with spyware, virusses, etc can be easily solved with good software.

But hey, these were my considerations, perhaps you have others. Let us know
what you've decided...

greetings from Holland,
Sting

I am running a date processing department. We support PCs and Macs (around 300
Macs and 50 PCs). In addition we store the amount of time we spend on a
problem. Now if I do some statistics on this database I find
- we spend only about 25% of the time with an average Mac compared to that
 of an average PC
Now one might speculate about the reasons. Anyway, I would like to point out
that this reflects mainly OS9 and below and only very few OS-X at the moment.

Regards,
  Christoph Gartmann

-- --------------------------------------------------------------------+

+------------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html -------------+

If you go PC route and "want to turn it on, do what I have to do then
turn it off without fiddling around.", you are best off going to a
store like Harvey Norman or Clive Peeters (or similar store) pay that
extra (which will make it pretty equal to a Mac cost) and make sure
they set it up for you including all software you require so you can
switch it on and go.

Once they are set up, they are pretty equal overall (IMHO).

You also will not need the most expensive shiniest computer either
(but make sure you get at least "512MB RAM").

Of course you'll get my biased opinion, so let me start by telling you
where my bias comes from:
30 years in IT, used anything from an IBM360, PDP-11, first Pascal
compilers, microprocessors, Suns (Unix-machines), LISP-machines, VAX,
PC's from MS-DOS on an 8086 onwards, Mac's from the original Mac
onwards, programmed in more languages than I care for today, ...
and I started out as an Electronics engineer doing digital VLSI IC
design (that's how today's CPU's got made), etc

Now: Both a Windows laptop and a Mac OSX laptop will work.
It's just much easier on a Mac most of the time. And you'll enjoy it
most of the time. Much less of that strange interaction of different
programs because they change settings in the registry - just because
there is none. And if you want, you'll find most settings needed (like
different accounts) can be done in a nice manner with a clean,
understandeable user interface.
I have and still do travel with both machines.

You know the pun:
PC-user: I can connect a CD-burner, a scanner, the internet, MIDI etc
all to my PC
Mac-user: So can I, and I'll even be able to use it all at the same time.
There is some truth in that.

If I have to pay for it, it will be a Mac every time.

Case in point: Yesterday I had to set up a laptop to work with a beamer.
Plugged the beamer into my Mac (closed), opened it and it works. No F5
pressing and such. It automatically switched resolution to match the
beamer. Question by the assistant: Is that all that's needed?

My recommendation: Get an iBook or Powerbook with the biggest screen you
can afford, buy RAM at another place instead of Apple, get a second
battery if you're on the road and most likely you'll be happy.
If it's got to be real cheap, get a Pismo powerbook (3 years old, some
500 USD), and it still works with Mac OSX.

Why?
For the same reason as me: I want to turn it on, do what I have to do,
then turn it off without fiddling around.
Even though I know computers to considerable detail, when I use it as a
tool, that's just what I want to do: use it as a tool.

If it is of some value to you, Gartner group (IT consulting) published a
report essentially proving life cycle costs for Mac to be much lower
because of much lower maintenance (help desk etc) - ie users tend to get
along with less help.

HTH

Marc

Definatly a Mac

I recently bought Apple's low-end iBook (12" screen, 700 MHz
processor) and even with a corporate discount through my former
employer, paid close to US $1,000 for it.

That iBook will be going to an Apple service center in a box today for
service for a display problem that seems to be pretty common, as I've
learned by reading the posts at apple.com's discussion boards.

The laptop came with 128 MB of RAM, I added 256 MB and I'm using OS
9.2.2 exclusively (save for a couple of excursions into OS X.

The computer has no DVD or built-in CD burner.

A few weeks earlier, my brother bought a Toshiba Satellite laptop for
US $800 or so. It runs Windows XP and he reports that it is a
rock-solid stable OS and has supported, via plug-and-play, every
device he's thrown at it. That PC laptop has a DVD player and now for
the same price one can purchase a laptop with a combo DVD player and
CD-RW burner.

I should mention that my brother is also a Mac user. His home desktop
computer is a Quicksilver G4 and his work computer is a Mac Wallstreet
laptop. But when he bought a computer for his own use, he opted for a
Wintel machine and he says he definitely made the right choice.

I've used Macs since 1987 and also spent six years in a Windows NT
(ugh!) work environment. My work PC now has Windows 2000 on it. I have
more Mac experience and currently find the Mac OS (9.2.2, anyway)
easier to use, but I haven't taken the time to refamiliarize myself
with Windows.

In your case, I'd look at two overriding options:

1.) What OS do you have familiarity with now?
2.) What software do you currently own?

You say you're going to use, basically, MS Office and Photoshop. If
you already have Windows versions of these programs, you'll probably
be better off buying the Windows laptop because, if not, you're going
to be out more than the price of the computer for the software ($900
for a low-end iBook, $300 or so for Office and $600 or so for
Photoshop). The 'Net apps are preinstalled so you won't have to pay
for anything in that regard.

If you're starting from scratch, truthfully, I'd go with the PC. I've
stuck with the Mac because I already have a lot invested in software.
I've been heartened to see that the new Mac G5s offer OS 9 as a boot
option, which has caused me to soften my stance that I've bought my
last Mac, but I'm seriously thinking that my next computer purchase
will be a PC.

Others have mentioned spyware and viruses, but if you don't download
and install a lot of shareware, and if you run a good antivirus
program, you should be safe in those regards.

Windows wins on price, compatibility and availability of software;
Apple has a slight edge on ease of use (Windows has narrowed the gap
tremendously in that regard in recent years), so again, I say go with
your own familiarity and what software you already have.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
H.B. Elkins mailto:hbelkins@mis.net or mailto:HBE1@aol.com
http://www.millenniumhwy.net
http://www.users.mis.net/~hbelkins

"There's no doubt he's the best race driver in the world."
--Dale Jarrett, on Dale Earnhardt (RIP 2/18/01)

I'm for Waltrip, Kentucky and whoever's playing North Carolina or Tennessee
To reply, you gotta do what NASCAR won't -- remove the restrictor plates!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

I love it!  "Unbiased opinions"?  Already about 20 zealots into the
conflict.  (Not really.  About 20 contibutions, some multiple.)

Since you posted to three Mac groups and one general computer group, I
suspect you've already made up your mind.  So go with the
discriminating 3% (including "Others") and ignore the 97% hoi polloi.

[Actually, I gave up on Apple back in the days of the TRS-80 Model I
and the Apple II when we discovered Applesoft BASIC didn't know about
printers and you had to PEEK and POKE around to get one to work with
the things.  Or some sort of fudging around like that.  The details
are misty now.  It was a pain in the butt anyway, as is obvious seeing
I'm still complaining. :) ]

Cheers, Phred.

My recommendation is that you do the following:

1) Spend time expanding the description of what you want to use the computer
for.  For some reason people tend to purchase computers and describe only
the basic need for them...the trigger decision on what made them decide to
purchase one.

Are you leaving anything out of your description?  It seems a little odd
that you'd have PhotoShop by itself...is this for print, photo, web
publishing?

This is much like buying a car to drive from home to a new job.  All of a
sudden you'll start realizing there are all kinds of places you'll be going
to.

You're looking at getting a laptop...would you want to use it to play DVDs?
Would you use it to store a library of MP3s?  Would you ever get a digital
camera?

2) Go to an APPLE store (if possible) and PC store and spend some time
having a salesperson show you how to do what it is that you want to do.

Apple Store employees are really good, and many other stores have great
Apple salespeople too.  However, there are always going to be a few
not-so-good people or people having bad days.  The point that I'm getting at
is that if you walk into a crappy store, get a sales jerk having a bad day
showing you a demo unit that some monkey on crack was just pounding away at,
and then only spend 2 minutes making an evaluation, you'll probably not come
close to what the overall experience will be with a Mac (same with a PC).

I'd recommend making a few visits and talking to a few salespeople.  You
spent the time posting a well written enquiry here so obviously this is
important enough to you to spend the time making a really good evaluation.

It's also one that involves more than just money.  You're going to invest a
hell of a lot of time learning, configuring, and using either system.  The
amount of time you spend evaluating which is best will be only a fraction.

As you compare the two, ask the salespeople questions, but get written
answers for anything spec as opposed to opinion related...they should all
have brochures.  

The bottom line is that one should *feel* better to you...go with this
feeling.  There's MS Office for both and Photoshop for both (along with
thousands of other applications for both).

Personally, I just can not use Photoshop on a PC.  I have the latest version
for Windows XP, and I've tried almost every version ever made for Windows.
It just doesn't *feel* right to me.

I also find OSX to be far better than Windows XP.

I have several Macs and several PCs.  My Macs last twice as long as my PCs.
I've never purchased a PC, I've only gotten them for free as a result of
working on projects.  If it wasn't for cross-platform development I would
never have a PC...as a matter of fact, VirtualPC with Windows XP now runs so
well on my Mac that I tend to use it as opposed to turning on my PC.

--keved

Angela, I think you've pretty much made a textbook case for purchasing a
Macintosh.

If you want a new system and need maximum portability, I'd suggest a 12"
Powerbook G4. They're reasonably powerful, although not as much so as
the larger Powerbooks, and offer a much lower price and much better
portability.

You might also want to consider a monitor/keyboard/mouse for home use
with it; any old USB monitor/keyboard will work, although I suggest a
Logitech keyboard since they typically include drivers to make the
keyboard layout make sense or an Apple one (where it always makes sense).

I hope that in some way helps.

As for whether or not I'm unbaised: I admit I prefer the Macintosh, but
I have tons of experience with both systems. In fact, I'm typing this on
my Windows PC since my Powerbook is in its carrying case ready to go to
work.... :)

Most people feel that the Mac are easier to use but the PC cost less
and have more application software.  The Mac has all the software the
average person needs.  There may not be a dozen software packages to
pick as on the PC from but there is one that does the job.  Mac users
focus on getting work done, PC users focus on piddling around with
their computer.  PC user like lots of buttons and options to pick
from.  Mac user's like for Apple to figure things out.

It's hard to pay more for your computer but you will be glad you did
everyday you use the machine.

MS Office is 100% compatible between Windows and the Mac.  Mac Office
does not include the database program Access.

Yeah even with Windows XP finding the control panel you need takes
some time.  I think you will be able to do it on the Mac if you want
too.

The Mac comes ready to use out of the box.  It includes a bunch of
software.  The Windows is ready for you to install your software.  The
first thing you must do on a Windows box is install your software.  On
the Mac, you open the box and get to work.

Technical note:  Goto the site www.washingtonpost.com on a new a new
computer.  The Mac will be able to view the entire site I do not
believe a PC will be able too.  Mac includes acrobat reader,  and
quicktime.  The PC does not.  PC user must download and install these
programs.

Get a Mac.  Consider the iBook.  

I own a Mac but use Windows at work.  

Get a Mac.

The short answer is

1) LESS than 10% of desktop computers in the world are Macs , so the
other 80% of computers are PCs which means that the PCs are more popular
and common , have a standardised type of interface , more available
software applications , and you don't have the problem of converting Mac
files/formats to PC files/formats when sharing files with other people.

2) Upgrading , getting /replacing new hardware for Macs is more
expensive than  for PCs because the Mac hardware is  proprietary
hardware and Apple can charge what they want.
Hardware improvements for the Macs are a lot slower than the PCs because
the Macs are made by only one company and they use proprietary hardware
, while the PC hardware is obtained from many different organisations
and developers who are consistently attempting to develop and improve
their products.

Get a PC , you will have less problems overall.
--

Sandgroper
-----------------------------------
Remove KNICKERS to Email
steveray@KNICKERSiinet.net.au

You can't go wrong, you'll be happy with either one -- though as a
lifelong Mac user, I think you'll be happier with a Mac.

There is, however, one other significantconsideration maybe not yet
mentioned in this long thread: security.  

If your mchine will, now or later, be connected to any kind of broadband
netework via DSL, cable modem, Airport, in your home or elsewhere, and
you go with a Windows machine, there's somewhere between a high
probability and a virtual certainty that your computer will be hacked
into over this connection.  This may only mean that your email lists
will be used by spammers, or possibly some of your private files spread
around, or possibly more serious damage to your data.  

This is much less likely to happen with a Mac, and IMHO is an almost
compelling reason to go with a Mac.

snip
<:

I hate the way most versions of windows crash inexplicably, unpredictably
and unapologetically. I hate being at the mercy of a monolith such as
microsoft. So why do we have four Intel machines in the house and not one
Mac? The application that I use in making my living is written for windows
and will never be available for the Mac. Most scientific applications that
we use are written for windows or Linux or DOS. Not for the Mac and probably
not ever. It is easy for us to swap hard disks between machines, and I am
led to believe it is not easy with a Mac. I am surrounded by dozens of
windows users who might help me out of a problem at some stage, and I know
only one Mac user. So, much as I am impressed by all I hear about Macs, they
are not for me and probably never will be.
Having said all that, I imagine that the advice you will get from
knowledgable and unbiased users is that it doesn't matter much one way or
the other. Whatever you buy will probably do everything you want and a lot
that you have not yet dreamed of.

There are no facts that can answer your question. There are merits to
both platforms, and which you prefer will be a matter of choice. May I
suggest you rent one of each for a week or two? Give them both a strong
side-by-side workout and see which suits your tastes the best.

If you like the way Microsoft thinks you should work then you'll
probably be happier with Windows.  It has the advantage of having
broader support.  If you need cheap go Windows.  If you want a
computer that is better behaved and easier to use, then go Mac.
If you need the best performance go Mac.

Try using each.  Pick the one that annoys you the least.

Hi ryako, I've owned PCs since the days of CP/M (pre-DOS) and I will
be migrating to a Mac once the G5s start shipping.  I've been working
closely with a friend on a project where he is using a G4, and I'm on
a PC, and I'm totally impressed:  not only is the G4 great and easy to
use, but now with OS-X there's all the power of Unix (not that you
would likely care about that).

One thing the PC guys won't tell you about is resale value:  compare a
2 year old Mac on eBay to the cost of an equivalent PC on eBay.  My
Athlon 1.2GHz might fetch me $300 (at most).  My friend's 400MHz G4
might get closer to $500.

Good luck, whatever you do.

Here's my opinion on this subject.

I use both. My experience: both will do what you want and perform well
for any general use (word processing, Internet, office applications,
ripping music, watching DVDs, etc.), I don't think anyone could
disagree with that.

Macs are disadvantaged as far as games are concerned (less titles
available). Portable Macs are very,very nice (aesthetically) and this
has to be factored in your decison! They are a bit more expensive than
Windows notebooks, and the choice is limited (5 models on sale). MacOS
is very pleasant to use, and not that different from Windows XP. I
have an iBook for digital photo management and music.

There are many, many, many different types of Windows portable
computers, and at very different prices too. This makes
generalisations rather pointless. My main computer (the one I work
with, I am a translator) is an IBM Thinkpad X30, very small and light
and excellent keyboard. It is expensive and underpowered, but it also
is the best computer *for me*. Windows XP works very well too, I for
one am happy with it.

If you have to run special software (scientific, engineering, graphic,
whatever) make sure that it  runs on the platform you choose.  What
people around you use is also something to consider! Choosing a
platform different than the one your family or colleagues use would
not be an enormous obstacle, but still a source of minor nuisance.

I've said.

farid