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Mac Forum / Applications / Mac Applications / December 2004



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Processor temp?

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aRKay - 26 Dec 2004 13:04 GMT
Santa delivered a new process and my G4 400 MHz is now a G4 1GHz. What
Apple utility reads or displays the processor temp? I found an
application called ThermoInDock but not sure what it is reading. Seems
to be stuck on 30 deg F
Gregory Weston - 26 Dec 2004 13:16 GMT
In article
<REMOVEarkay-A49099.07041526122004@newssvr30-ext.news.prodigy.com>,

> Santa delivered a new process and my G4 400 MHz is now a G4 1GHz. What
> Apple utility reads or displays the processor temp? I found an
> application called ThermoInDock but not sure what it is reading. Seems
> to be stuck on 30 deg F

I don't know that I've seen a utility from Apple to do that. I do know
that not all chips under the G4 moniker have functional temperature
sensors. I use this:

<http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/19994>

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aRKay - 26 Dec 2004 15:10 GMT
> In article
> <REMOVEarkay-A49099.07041526122004@newssvr30-ext.news.prodigy.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> <http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/19994>

I tried it and it does not work. It comes back with a nag note saying

"..... Unfortunately no sensor could be found in this computer system..."
Gregory Weston - 26 Dec 2004 15:37 GMT
In article
<REMOVEarkay-1650CA.09102926122004@newssvr30-ext.news.prodigy.com>,

> > > Santa delivered a new process and my G4 400 MHz is now a G4 1GHz. What
> > > Apple utility reads or displays the processor temp? I found an
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>  
> "..... Unfortunately no sensor could be found in this computer system..."

It works fine. Why do you assume that's a "nag" instead of a legit
summary?

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aRKay - 26 Dec 2004 20:58 GMT
> In article
> <REMOVEarkay-1650CA.09102926122004@newssvr30-ext.news.prodigy.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> It works fine. Why do you assume that's a "nag" instead of a legit
> summary?

Do all G4's have temp sensor?  Anyone able to get it run on a G4 AGP
Sawtooth machine?
Gregory Weston - 26 Dec 2004 21:45 GMT
In article
<REMOVEarkay-BF32C3.14584726122004@newssvr30-ext.news.prodigy.com>,

> > In article
> > <REMOVEarkay-1650CA.09102926122004@newssvr30-ext.news.prodigy.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Do all G4's have temp sensor?

See a couple of posts back:

> > > > I do know that not all chips under the G4 moniker have functional
> > > > temperature sensors.

G

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Someone - 27 Dec 2004 20:17 GMT
In article
<REMOVEarkay-BF32C3.14584726122004@newssvr30-ext.news.prodigy.com>,

> Do all G4's have temp sensor?  Anyone able to get it run on a G4 AGP
> Sawtooth machine?

Works fine on my G4. One possible use for this would be
during summer months in places like Arizona with less
than cool AC and temps in 80/90's indoors and you want
to keep track of processor temps. My old Sonnet G3 card
used to run a lot hotter in the summer and the fan on my
7300 ran a lot faster in the summer. My MDD G4 is usually
very quiet.

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/19994&mode=feedback

Current temp onboard- 30.9°C
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David C. - 29 Dec 2004 00:50 GMT
> Works fine on my G4. One possible use for this would be during
> summer months in places like Arizona with less than cool AC and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Current temp onboard- 30.9°C
> Someone

You must have the first model PowerMac to have a temperature sensor.
My G4 (Quicksilver-2002) doesn't have one.  Your MDD is one
generation more modern than mine.

-- David
Isaac Wingfield - 29 Dec 2004 07:48 GMT
> > Works fine on my G4. One possible use for this would be during
> > summer months in places like Arizona with less than cool AC and
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> My G4 (Quicksilver-2002) doesn't have one.  Your MDD is one
> generation more modern than mine.

The stock processor in my beige G3 has a temp sensor. Applications like
"Metronome" and "Gauge PRO" show the temperature.

Isaac
David C. - 29 Dec 2004 10:21 GMT
>> You must have the first model PowerMac to have a temperature
>> sensor.  My G4 (Quicksilver-2002) doesn't have one.  Your MDD is
>> one generation more modern than mine.
>
> The stock processor in my beige G3 has a temp sensor. Applications
> like "Metronome" and "Gauge PRO" show the temperature.

I can't try those utilities, because they aren't compatible with OS
X, but I did download several different temperature monitor
utilitities.  None of them found any temperature sensors in my G4
tower, other than the ones in the hard drives.

One program I downloaded (ThermographX) contains a small document on
hardware compatibility.  It mentions many different systems, and
notes that some have software-accessible temperature sensors and some
don't.  It documents:

       iMac/G3s have them

       iMac/G4s do not

       iBooks have them

       Cubes have them, but they are often inaccurate

       AGP G4s have them

       MDD G4s have them, but the core temperature is always
       reported as the same constant temperature.  The fan-sensor
       seems accurate.

       PowerMac G5s have them, but the sensors on some video cards
       are broken, and always report a constant temperature.

It would appear that Apple has repeatedly changed its mind about
whether or not to include software-readable temperature sensors.
It's a hard requirement for laptops and G5 systems, since there are
software-controlled fans, but there doesn't seem to be any pattern to
whether they exist in other models.

-- David
Timothy A. Seufert - 30 Dec 2004 13:30 GMT
> It would appear that Apple has repeatedly changed its mind about
> whether or not to include software-readable temperature sensors.
> It's a hard requirement for laptops and G5 systems, since there are
> software-controlled fans, but there doesn't seem to be any pattern to
> whether they exist in other models.

Actually, there is a pattern, but it's not at all obvious if you're not
a hardware design engineer familiar with the trials and tribulations of
on-die temperature sensors in PowerPC CPUs.

The early examples of temperature sensors in Macs happened because
Motorola put a sensor inside the G3 CPU.  Apple did not actually use
that sensor for anything, because they didn't need to.  It was probably
put in for Motorola's embedded customers rather than Apple.

There were some flaws in the G3 temperature sensor.  It worked best on
the chip fabrication process used to make the original revision of the
G3.  It got worse -- or at least behaved differently -- as IBM and
Motorola tweaked process parameters and die shrunk the chip (which of
course meant a new process).  As a result, programmers who want to read
the G3 sensor (and get accurate results) must apply correction factors
which change depending on the die revision of the G3 CPU.  For this
reason, you may find that some software temperature monitor utilities
report different values than others -- if one, the other, or both got
the corrections wrong, the output will differ.

Now, when Motorola designed the G4, they used the existing G3 design as
a starting point.  The original generation of G4 CPUs (anything from 350
MHz to 550 MHz) was, in essence, a G3 with a better bus and AltiVec
bolted on.  So, a lot of things survived more or less unchanged from the
G3.

One of them was the temperature sensor.  Problem was, its circuit design
was sufficiently unchanged -- and the process used to build the G4
sufficiently different from that of even late model G3s -- that it never
worked right on the G4.  At first Motorola documented this as an errata
which might get fixed in a future revision (all CPUs have bugs like
this, especially new designs), but eventually, they chose instead to
stop supporting use of the sensor on the G4.  (Presumably nobody
complained about it not working, or at least nobody who was buying
enough G4s for Motorola to care.)  The registers are still documented
but Motorola guarantees nothing about how well the sensor works.

You can read data from the now-vestigial sensor, but odd things will
happen.  Like two G4 CPUs in a dual processor machine reporting vastly
different numbers, even though they're clamped to the same heatsink
(which should keep the temperatures of both CPUs fairly close).  In
general, the older the G4, the closer the sensor is to working -- but
none of them really work right.

At some point (the MDD G4, to be precise) Apple began including sensors
_external_ to the CPU.  Some of these are mounted close enough to the
CPU (perhaps attached to the heatsink?) that they can be used as a
substitute for the G4's dysfunctional internal sensor.

The G5 CPU has a functioning internal sensor.  G5 Macs also sport a ton
of other sensors which monitor temperatures at various points in the
enclosure, the electrical power drawn by different parts of the machine,
and the fans.

So, Apple never actually changed its mind...  once they decided software
readable sensors were a good idea, they jumped in with both feet.

Signature

Tim

David C. - 30 Dec 2004 18:00 GMT
> Actually, there is a pattern, but it's not at all obvious if you're not
> a hardware design engineer familiar with the trials and tribulations of
> on-die temperature sensors in PowerPC CPUs.

(lots of good stuff snipped)

Thanks.  It's not often I learn something really interesting on newsgroups!

-- David
Shawn Hearn - 26 Dec 2004 14:11 GMT
In article
<REMOVEarkay-A49099.07041526122004@newssvr30-ext.news.prodigy.com>,

> Santa delivered a new process and my G4 400 MHz is now a G4 1GHz. What
> Apple utility reads or displays the processor temp? I found an
> application called ThermoInDock but not sure what it is reading. Seems
> to be stuck on 30 deg F

Just curious, but what value would the processor temperature be to you?
I have had many Macs over the years and they all worked fine without my
knowing the processor temperature. Am I missing something?
aRKay - 26 Dec 2004 15:12 GMT
> Just curious, but what value would the processor temperature be to you?
> I have had many Macs over the years and they all worked fine without my
> knowing the processor temperature. Am I missing something?

Because the processor is new and I just wanted to check and see if there
is a change with heavy duty work.
David C. - 26 Dec 2004 16:08 GMT
> Santa delivered a new process and my G4 400 MHz is now a G4
> 1GHz. What Apple utility reads or displays the processor temp? I
> found an application called ThermoInDock but not sure what it is
> reading. Seems to be stuck on 30 deg F

I can guarantee you that your CPU is no colder than the freezing
point of water!

30 degrees C is at least in the ballpark, but that also seems a bit
low for a 1GHz processor.

Your computer probably doesn't have a thermal sensor in it, as
Temperature Monitor said.

FWIW, when I run it on my QuickSilver-2002 G4 system, it only finds
the temperature sensors in my hard drives.  It doesn't find anything
for the system board.  So I would be very surprised if it found
anything for your much older system.

-- David
 
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