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Mac Forum / Applications / Mac Applications / October 2008

SuperDuper! and Spotlight Indexing

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Nick Naym - 23 Oct 2008 07:25 GMT

I just finished creating my initial SD! clone on an external partition. As
soon as I rebooted (I had created the clone in Safe Mode), I discovered that
Spotlight was indexing the drive on which the partition is located.

Since the SD! clone is a duplicate of my internal drive (which, I assume,
has long-ago been indexed, since I got the machine back in April), why is
Spotlight going through an indexing process? It's particularly strange (to
me), as I never noticed Spotlight attempting to index my other external
backup drive (the one I keep my Time Machine backups on).

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Barry Margolin - 23 Oct 2008 08:05 GMT

> I just finished creating my initial SD! clone on an external partition. As
> soon as I rebooted (I had created the clone in Safe Mode), I discovered that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> me), as I never noticed Spotlight attempting to index my other external
> backup drive (the one I keep my Time Machine backups on).

Check the Privacy tab of your Spotlight preferences, the other drive may
be listed in the exclusion list.

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Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
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Nick Naym - 23 Oct 2008 08:14 GMT

>> I just finished creating my initial SD! clone on an external partition. As
>> soon as I rebooted (I had created the clone in Safe Mode), I discovered that
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Check the Privacy tab of your Spotlight preferences, the other drive may
> be listed in the exclusion list.

Nope...the only thing there is my Entourage "Main Identity." I never put my
Time Machine HD there, and SD! didn't (somehow) put my SD! volume there.

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Tim Lance - 23 Oct 2008 11:34 GMT

>>> I just finished creating my initial SD! clone on an external partition. As
>>> soon as I rebooted (I had created the clone in Safe Mode), I discovered
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Nope...the only thing there is my Entourage "Main Identity." I never put my
> Time Machine HD there, and SD! didn't (somehow) put my SD! volume there.

Much help for this on SD!'s forum. I hate forums but there are exceptions to
everything.

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Tim
lance_1012@hotmail.com

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TaliesinSoft - 23 Oct 2008 15:12 GMT

> I just finished creating my initial SD! clone on an external partition. As
> soon as I rebooted (I had created the clone in Safe Mode), I discovered that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> me), as I never noticed Spotlight attempting to index my other external
> backup drive (the one I keep my Time Machine backups on).

The default for Spotlight is to index all drives except that used for Time
Machine. If one doesn't want a drive indexed one has to explicitly put it in
Spotlight's Privacy list. This can be done with the System Preferences panel
for Spotlight.

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James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@me.com

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Nick Naym - 23 Oct 2008 17:10 GMT

>> I just finished creating my initial SD! clone on an external partition. As
>> soon as I rebooted (I had created the clone in Safe Mode), I discovered that
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> The default for Spotlight is to index all drives except that used for Time
> Machine.

Is that a recent change? I ask because my general search turned up tons of
pages suggesting that Spotlight searches any external drive that you
connect.

> If one doesn't want a drive indexed one has to explicitly put it in
> Spotlight's Privacy list. This can be done with the System Preferences panel
> for Spotlight.

I did that. But it seems weird that Spotlight would index a clone of an
already-indexed HD.

Also - my general search turned up a lot of complaints claiming that
external drives placed in the Privacy list often inexplicably disappear from
the List, as well as complaints that they are removed from the List when the
external drive is dismounted.

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Mike Rosenberg - 23 Oct 2008 17:25 GMT

> > The default for Spotlight is to index all drives except that used for
> > Time Machine.
>
> Is that a recent change? I ask because my general search turned up tons of
> pages suggesting that Spotlight searches any external drive that you
> connect.

It's not a recent change, nor a change at all. He was mistaken,
Spotlight _does_ index Time Machine volumes by default, and for good
reason - if you're looking for a file you've deleted from your main
drive, you need to able to search for it on your Time Machine volume.

> I did that. But it seems weird that Spotlight would index a clone of an
> already-indexed HD.

How would Spotlight know it's a clone? A non-Apple program created it.
Besides, it's only truly a clone as of the moment it's done its last
backup. After that, the two volumes start diverging. Also, bear in mind
there's nothing preventing a user from putting files onto that volume
independently of SD, whether intentionally or not.

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Nick Naym - 23 Oct 2008 18:24 GMT

>>> The default for Spotlight is to index all drives except that used for
>>> Time Machine.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> reason - if you're looking for a file you've deleted from your main
> drive, you need to able to search for it on your Time Machine volume.

OK.

>> I did that. But it seems weird that Spotlight would index a clone of an
>> already-indexed HD.
>
> How would Spotlight know it's a clone?

How does it know it's _not_ the same drive as the original? Isn't that what
"clone" means...an _identical_ volume?

> A non-Apple program created it.
> Besides, it's only truly a clone as of the moment it's done its last
> backup. After that, the two volumes start diverging. Also, bear in mind
> there's nothing preventing a user from putting files onto that volume
> independently of SD, whether intentionally or not.

Sure. But I would expect Spotlight to re-index only if it notices a change.

It seems to me that any "index" that Spotlight creates remains unchanged
until the volume it indexed actually changes. If the SD! clone is _truly_ a
clone, it should contain the same index as the original. But, apparently, it
doesn't. As a matter of fact, Spotlight treats the clone as if it were a
brand-new, never-before-indexed drive, and initiates a _complete_ indexing
process.

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Tom Stiller - 23 Oct 2008 20:19 GMT

> In article 1ip9jib.d0kcheqekkjxN%mikePOST@TOGROUPmacconsult.com, Mike
> Rosenberg at mikePOST@TOGROUPmacconsult.com wrote on 10/23/08 12:25
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> How does it know it's _not_ the same drive as the original? Isn't
> that what "clone" means...an _identical_ volume?

Calling something a clone doesn't necessarily mean it *is* a clone.

Actually, the two volumes don't even have the exact complement of files
and they will have different GUIDs.

If you want to make a true clone, use the "dd" command to copy all
sectors from disk to the other. However, I expect that if both those
volumes are mounted at the same time, the OS will assign a unique GUID
to one, or both of them.

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Mike Rosenberg - 23 Oct 2008 21:14 GMT

> >> I did that. But it seems weird that Spotlight would index a clone of an
> >> already-indexed HD.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> How does it know it's _not_ the same drive as the original? Isn't that
> what "clone" means...an _identical_ volume?

Let's assume they are file-for-file identical. That's not the case,
since we've already discussed that SD doesn't back up cache files by
default, but let's assume they are. Okay, the _files_ are identical, but
we're talking about two distinct volumes on two distinct pieces of
hardware.

> > A non-Apple program created it. Besides, it's only truly a clone as of the
> > moment it's done its last backup. After that, the two volumes start
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Sure. But I would expect Spotlight to re-index only if it notices a
> change.

The point is that Spotlight never indexed it in the first place. Copying
the index from the original drive isn't the same as indexing the backup
drive.

> It seems to me that any "index" that Spotlight creates remains unchanged
> until the volume it indexed actually changes. If the SD! clone is
> _truly_ a clone, it should contain the same index as the original. But,
> apparently, it doesn't. As a matter of fact, Spotlight treats the clone
> as if it were a brand-new, never-before-indexed drive, and initiates a
> _complete_ indexing process.

Again, how would Spotlight know _not_ to do that, unless SD were
programmed to interact with it somehow.

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Gregory Weston - 24 Oct 2008 02:44 GMT

> > >> I did that. But it seems weird that Spotlight would index a clone of an
> > >> already-indexed HD.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Again, how would Spotlight know _not_ to do that, unless SD were
> programmed to interact with it somehow.

And, more importantly, who's to say that the data that make up the index
are even valid once the files are copied. Sure the *content* of the
files is the same, and presumably the indexed data will be the same...

but will the file references that actually point the index data back to
an entry in the directory structure be rational or correct? I can't
think of any way it's likely to be. The drive will have a different
name, so paths won't work. The files will have different file ID
numbers, so aliases won't work.

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John Varela - 24 Oct 2008 01:45 GMT

>>> I did that. But it seems weird that Spotlight would index a clone of an
>>> already-indexed HD.
>>
>> How would Spotlight know it's a clone?
>
> How does it know it's _not_ the same drive as the original?

Your backup drive is not the same drive as the original and it does not
have the same name as the original. So Spotlight has no way of knowing
if it's a clone or not, or if it used to be a clone but no longer is
because the original changed.

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Nick Naym - 24 Oct 2008 02:37 GMT

>>>> I did that. But it seems weird that Spotlight would index a clone of an
>>>> already-indexed HD.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> if it's a clone or not, or if it used to be a clone but no longer is
> because the original changed.

I was under the impression that the Spotlight index was copied over to the
clone, so that -- even though the clone had a different name -- Spotlight
would still be able to search it. (Quite frankly, I'm still not clear how
the Spotlight index for the original initially differs from the index
Spotlight creates for the clone.)

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Tom Stiller - 24 Oct 2008 04:05 GMT

> >>>> I did that. But it seems weird that Spotlight would index a clone of an
> >>>> already-indexed HD.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> the Spotlight index for the original initially differs from the index
> Spotlight creates for the clone.)

You have to understand that the copied drive is a clone in name only.
It will have a different volume ID and the copied files will all have
different file IDs, as well as different locations within the filespace.

A spotlight "search" makes use of an index using internal file
identifiers which are not copied in the "cloning" process.

If you want a true clone, use the shell's 'dd' commnad to copy the full
sector range of the source disk to the target disk.

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Nick Naym - 23 Oct 2008 18:26 GMT

>>> The default for Spotlight is to index all drives except that used for
>>> Time Machine.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> It's not a recent change, nor a change at all. He was mistaken,
> Spotlight _does_ index Time Machine volumes by default,

...BTW: How come I never noticed the indexing? I noticed it immediately
after I created the SD! Clone, but never saw it occur when I created my
first TM backup.

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TaliesinSoft - 23 Oct 2008 21:21 GMT

> Nick Naym <nicknaym@[remove_this].gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> you're looking for a file you've deleted from your main drive, you need to
> able to search for it on your Time Machine volume.

I do indeed stand corrected on the default Spotlight indexing for Time
Machine! Why I thought that I don't know.

>> I did that. But it seems weird that Spotlight would index a clone of an
>> already-indexed HD.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> there's nothing preventing a user from putting files onto that volume
> independently of SD, whether intentionally or not.

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James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@me.com

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Nick Naym - 23 Oct 2008 22:00 GMT

>>>> The default for Spotlight is to index all drives except that used for
>>>> Time Machine.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Machine! Why I thought that I don't know.
>

Then how come I never noticed the TM indexing? I noticed it immediately
after I created the SD! Clone -- it was hard (perhaps impossible) to miss --
but never saw it occur when I created my first TM backup.

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TaliesinSoft - 23 Oct 2008 22:35 GMT

> Then how come I never noticed the TM indexing? I noticed it immediately
> after I created the SD! Clone -- it was hard (perhaps impossible) to miss
> -- but never saw it occur when I created my first TM backup.

I have no idea. The only two drives I have Spotlight index are my internal
drive and the external drive that acts as an extension to my internal drive.
All of my SuperDuper! and Time Machine drives are excluded from indexing.

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James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@me.com

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Bream Rockmetteller - 24 Oct 2008 00:37 GMT

> I just finished creating my initial SD! clone on an external partition. As
> soon as I rebooted (I had created the clone in Safe Mode), I discovered that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> me), as I never noticed Spotlight attempting to index my other external
> backup drive (the one I keep my Time Machine backups on).

SD! has the option to run a script after finishing a backup. I found a
script called "disable_spotlight" that contains the following:

#!/bin/sh
echo "Disabling spotlight for $4..."
mdutil -E -i off "$4"

Having SD! run this script after backup will prevent Spotlight from
examining your clone.

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TaliesinSoft - 24 Oct 2008 01:02 GMT

> SD! has the option to run a script after finishing a backup. I found a
> script called "disable_spotlight" that contains the following:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Having SD! run this script after backup will prevent Spotlight from
> examining your clone.

Does disabling Spotlight with the above script do anything that including the
SuperDuper! target in Spotlight's privacy list?

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James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@me.com

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Nick Naym - 24 Oct 2008 01:27 GMT

>> SD! has the option to run a script after finishing a backup. I found a
>> script called "disable_spotlight" that contains the following:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Does disabling Spotlight with the above script do anything that including the
> SuperDuper! target in Spotlight's privacy list doesn't do?

I was about to ask the same question.

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Bream Rockmetteller - 24 Oct 2008 06:52 GMT

>>> SD! has the option to run a script after finishing a backup. I found a
>>> script called "disable_spotlight" that contains the following:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> I was about to ask the same question.

Haven't the foggiest. It's what the guys at ShirtPocket suggested to
use. Perhaps there's no difference. I guess it's a pro-active approach
to the "well I put that drive on the list and now spotlight forgot it"
problem.

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