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Mac Forum / Applications / Mac Applications / July 2008Would you consider newer Macs and their newer OS' as PCs?
Hello! Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., Linux), etc. Would you consider them PCs now? My friend (a PC guy :P) and I had a debate that they are not PCs. To me, they are PCs since they can do PCs stuff. He argued it can't do PC/Windows games, use all the latest and greatest PC peripherials and cards from day 1, etc. What do you guys think? Thank you in advance. :)  Signature"We are anthill men upon an anthill world." --Ray Bradbury /\___/\ / /\ /\ \ Phil/Ant @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org (Personal Web Site) | |o o| | Ant's Quality Foraged Links (AQFL): http://aqfl.net \ _ / Remove ANT from e-mail address: philpi@earthlink.netANT ( ) or ANTant@zimage.com Ant is currently not listening to any songs on his home computer. > Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, > virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., > Linux), etc. Would you consider them PCs now? They've always been PC's. PC = Personal Computer. They just haven't been IBM Compatible PC's or Wintel PC's. (Take your pic.) There were PC's before IBM came along with the IBM PC. Greg Buchner SignatureActual e-mail address is gregbuchner and I'm located at gmail.com > > Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, > > virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > There were PC's before IBM came along with the IBM PC. My first PC was an apple II. My second PC should have been a Dell. But they had no German keyboard driver at that time - so the PC became a Mac Plus. Not really cheap, but worth the money... >> Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, >> virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > There were PC's before IBM came along with the IBM PC. As you know Greg, there has always been difered between 'Mac' and 'PC's. - why this differing may be somewhere in the winds in the space.:-) So maybe we should give the Macs a brand new 'name' - 'MPC' - now = 'Multi Platform Computer'...:-) cheers, Erik Richard Signature~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rgds. Grüße, Mvh. Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC <mac-man_NOSP@M_stofanet.dk> <http://www.nisus.com> NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Textprocessing ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >> Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, > >> virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > So maybe we should give the Macs a brand new 'name' - 'MPC' - now = > 'Multi Platform Computer'...:-) When confronted with someone who insists that a box must be running Windows to qualify as a "PC", I merely point out that in that case "PC" stands for "Pretend Computer". Isaac > When confronted with someone who insists that a box must be running > Windows to qualify as a "PC", I merely point out that in that case "PC" > stands for "Pretend Computer". > > Isaac idiot. > >> Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, > >> virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > As you know Greg, there has always been difered between 'Mac' and 'PC's. > - why this differing may be somewhere in the winds in the space.:-) Yea, but the sign in the college library when I was going to college in the mid-80s said Personal Computers and pointed the way. There was 5 IBM PCs, 6 Apple IIe's and 2 Commodore 64's there at the time. Eventually they added a couple of 512K Macs. I've been arguing with people for years when they call a Wintel PC just a PC... Greg Buchner SignatureActual e-mail address is gregbuchner and I'm located at gmail.com >There were PC's before IBM came along with the IBM PC. Didn't IBM copy rite the term? > >There were PC's before IBM came along with the IBM PC. > > Didn't IBM copy rite the term? I suspect you are referring to registering a trademark. You can't copyright a word (though the way things are going...). Note also that copyrights refer to the right to copy rather than a rite of copying. Thus the spelling. It is true that copying a floppy on an original IBM PC was a bit of a rite if you had only one drive, but I doubt they copyrighted that particular rite. :-) I seriously doubt that IBM registered a trademark for the term "PC" since that term was already in common generic use. Heck, you can loose a trademark if you let your trademark become too widely generically used after the fact, much less if it was already generically used. It wouldn't suprise me if they trademarked "IBM PC", though I haven't checked, but then that wasn't the question either. SignatureRichard Maine | Good judgement comes from experience; email: last name at domain . net | experience comes from bad judgement. domain: summertriangle | -- Mark Twain > > >There were PC's before IBM came along with the IBM PC. > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > wouldn't suprise me if they trademarked "IBM PC", though I haven't > checked, but then that wasn't the question either. They did trademark "IBM PC", yes. There were a lot of early computers before then that used "personal computer" in their advertising, and I think that a few even had "pc" in the text somewhere, but nobody previously had thought to trademark it. >> >There were PC's before IBM came along with the IBM PC. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I seriously doubt that IBM registered a trademark for the term "PC" > since that term was already in common generic use. Even Apple used it. The Apple II+ shipping box I still have has 'The Personal Computer' printed on it, with the word personal underlined. I don't know when this particular box was made, but the Apple II+ was sold from 1979 to 1982 so it's likely Apple was using the term before the IBM PC was released. SignatureRoger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand -> http://roger.geek.nz >> I seriously doubt that IBM registered a trademark for the term "PC" >> since that term was already in common generic use. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >from 1979 to 1982 so it's likely Apple was using the term before the IBM >PC was released. As far as trademarks go, "personal computer" and "pc" are not the same thing. > >There were PC's before IBM came along with the IBM PC. > > Didn't IBM copy rite the term? a) It wouldn't be copyright. It would be trademark. b) They couldn't. The term was already in widespread use by the time they entered the desktop/microcomputer market. They could and did trademark the augmented form "IBM-PC" but that trademark was abandoned over a decade ago. Signature"Harry?" Ron's voice was a mere whisper. "Do you smell something ... burning?" - Harry Potter and the Odor of the Phoenix > >There were PC's before IBM came along with the IBM PC. > > Didn't IBM copy rite the term? Back in the day, I used to carry my box of punched cards on the train to NY to use the 7094 at the IBM Service Center. Since the machine didn't run a multi-user OS, it was a "one man - one machine" pr personal computer. :-) SignatureTom Stiller PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3 7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF > >There were PC's before IBM came along with the IBM PC. > > Didn't IBM copy rite the term? You mean "copyright"? SignaturePlease send all responses to the relevant news group rather than directly to me, as E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google Groups. You'll need to use a real news reader if you want me to see your posts. JR >> Didn't IBM copy rite the term? > >You mean "copyright"? Yes. I was too quick with the spell checker. > >There were PC's before IBM came along with the IBM PC. > > Didn't IBM copy rite the term? Yep. There was a *lot* of hands slapping foreheads around the office at Apple when it was released. Literally. > Hello! > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What do you guys think? Thank you in advance. :) Well, by "PC" I think you mean to say "Windows". PC means "personal computer" and the Apple ][s and various CP/M-based systems of the late 70s were called personal computers, even before the advent of the "IBM PC" in 1980 or so. But, if you go back to "PC World Magazine", I think you'll find them rating the new Mac laptops as the fastest laptops for running Windows. InfoWorld (in late 2007) also listed the MacBook Pro as the best Windows laptop. SignatureSpenser > Hello! > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > PC/Windows games, use all the latest and greatest PC peripherials and > cards from day 1, etc. Its a silly debate, but your friend is wrong. You can boot a Mac into the Windows edition of your choice via Bootcamp and you can do anything you can on another platform such as Dell, H-P, Sony, etc. > Hello! > > Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, > virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., > Linux), etc. Would you consider them PCs now? I've considered them PCs for more than 24 years. Then again, I've worked on mainframes and minis. To me, "personal computer" doesn't have capital letters. > My friend (a PC guy :P) and I had a debate that they are not PCs. To me, > they are PCs since they can do PCs stuff. He argued it can't do > PC/Windows games, use all the latest and greatest PC peripherials and > cards from day 1, etc. > > What do you guys think? Thank you in advance. :) I think your friend's argument is ill-informed, even taking into account the common definition of "PC" as meaning "in the effective lineage of the IBM Personal Computer" rather than the more general "personal computer." Modern Macs are no less capable of the things he listed than name-brand Windows-running machines. Signature"Harry?" Ron's voice was a mere whisper. "Do you smell something ... burning?" - Harry Potter and the Odor of the Phoenix > > My friend (a PC guy :P) and I had a debate that they are not PCs. To me, > > they are PCs since they can do PCs stuff. He argued it can't do [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > computer." Modern Macs are no less capable of the things he listed than > name-brand Windows-running machines. Indeed it sounds to me like the friend recalled hearing some other argument, but forgot what the points were and guessed them incorrectly. I have heard people argue things like that the use of EFI makes Intel Macs not "real" Windows machines. I consider those to be poor arguments, but I have heard them. But your friend seems to be just plain ill-informed. Intel Macs certainly can do things like run PC/Windows games. The one I'm typing this on is quite good at them - better than any of the non-Mac Windows boxes I have or have had. I have several such games installed on it and yes, they include some of the "latest and greatest." Nobody else has ever used a definition of "PC" (Windows or otherwise) that includes such things as being able to "use all the latest and greatest PC peripherals and cards." That's part of what just sounds like your friend trying to recall what the argument was, but getting it completely wrong. So according to your friend, there are no PC laptops, since you can't put "all the latest" cards in any laptop out there? (Try a video card, for example.) And as soon as a new interface of some kind comes out, what were PCs last year are suddenly no longer PCs? For example, all those PCs I had with AGP video cards stopped being PCs when.... ah whatever the acronym was - I forget... replaced AGP as the "latest and greatest" thing? Or for that matter, just the next speed bump up in AGP. And many Dells aren't PCs because Dell has a long history of doing things just slightly enough different that it is sometimes hard to use non-Dell cards with them? (Actual, I think Dells have been better about that recently, but they used to have issues like that.) Well, if your friend wants to use definitions like that, I suppose he is free to talk to himself all day. But those aren't definitions that anyone else in the world uses. If he is going to make up his own completely arbitrary definitions, he might as well at least make up useful ones. For example, claim that a Mac Pro isn't a PC because it is just slightly too big to fit in the cabinet that my desk has for a tower PC. That definition at least has some utility, though the rest of the world doesn't know about it. :-) Sure the kiddies like to brag about whose hot rod is fastest, but I think your friend got his arguments mixed up. SignatureRichard Maine | Good judgement comes from experience; email: last name at domain . net | experience comes from bad judgement. domain: summertriangle | -- Mark Twain > Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, > virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > PC/Windows games, use all the latest and greatest PC peripherials and > cards from day 1, etc. I don't know what your friend is smoking, but given that Macs can run Windows, they most certainly *can* "do PC/Windows games, use all the latest and greatest PC peripherials and cards from day 1, etc.". > What do you guys think? Thank you in advance. :) Does it even matter to begin with?? SignaturePlease send all responses to the relevant news group rather than directly to me, as E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google Groups. You'll need to use a real news reader if you want me to see your posts. JR On 6/23/2008 7:14 AM PT, Jolly Roger typed: >> Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, >> virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Windows, they most certainly *can* "do PC/Windows games, use all the > latest and greatest PC peripherials and cards from day 1, etc.". That is what I was thinking too. Wait, you can use the newest ATI and NVIDIA cards in Macs now? I didn't know that. Signature"When the people look like ants -- PULL. When the ants look like people -- PRAY." --A skydiving quote /\___/\ / /\ /\ \ Phil/Ant @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org (Personal Web Site) | |o o| | Ant's Quality Foraged Links (AQFL): http://aqfl.net \ _ / Remove ANT from e-mail address: philpi@earthlink.netANT ( ) or ANTant@zimage.com Ant is currently not listening to any songs on his home computer. >I don't know what your friend is smoking, but given that Macs can run >Windows, they most certainly *can* "do PC/Windows games, use all the >latest and greatest PC peripherials and cards from day 1, etc.". "From Day 1", limits us to those games which came with the computer such as solitaire. Of course, that's assuming you have a computer that has a monitor built in (such as the iMac), as otherwise, you have to purchase a monitor to play. If it's OK to install a computer game first, then it should also be OK to install Windows or Linux or whatever OS that game is designed to run with. >Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, >virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >PC/Windows games, use all the latest and greatest PC peripherials and >cards from day 1, etc. They aren't made by IBM, so I guess they aren't PCs. Neither are Dells nor Gateways nor Sonys nor HPs... Of course an original IBM PC running PC DOS can't do Windows games, while my Mac has Windows games on it. So find a definition of "PC" and test old PCs and new Macs and see which fit best. > Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, > virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., > Linux), etc. Would you consider them PCs now? Two ways to look at the question: 1 - Yes, assuming that "PC" means "personal computer". The Apple// was a personal computer. 2 - No, they are not Windows-based PCs. They're a lot more, and running windows is just a small part of their capabilities. You can't just wipe the hard drive and install Win<whatever> off a generic Windows install CD/DVD, can you? >> Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, >> virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > You can't just wipe the hard drive and install Win<whatever> off a > generic Windows install CD/DVD, can you? Yes you can, but why would you? You'd still need the OS X DVD so that you could get the drivers for the various Apple devices on the system, including but not limited to: networking (both Ethernet and wireless) Bluetooth audio the iSight camera the special keys on the keyboard the buttons on the Mighty Mouse Signatureemail to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com. > >> Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, > >> virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > could get the drivers for the various Apple devices on the system, including > but not limited to: Which is *exactly* why I said what I did. Oh yeah, how long has WinXP supported EFI-based systems? Or most versions of Vista? There's no BIOS in place for it to work with. > networking (both Ethernet and wireless) > Bluetooth > audio > the iSight camera > the special keys on the keyboard > the buttons on the Mighty Mouse > Hello! > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > they are PCs since they can do PCs stuff. He argued it can't do > PC/Windows games, He's wrong on that point, once your Mac has had Boot Camp installed and Windows over it. > use all the latest and greatest PC peripherials and cards from day 1, etc. A bog-standard PC running Windows can't do that either. > What do you guys think? Thank you in advance. :) > Hello! > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What do you guys think? Thank you in advance. :) To me a Mac is a PC that can run Mac OS. YMMV. > Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, virtual > programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., Linux), etc. > Would you consider them PCs now? As with others, I've always considered Macs to be Personal Computers. But the "Hi, I'm a PC" ads certainly suggest that Apple marketing is playing along with the more limited meaning of "PC". But before I really think about your question, I've got other more meaningful things to worry about. For example, I'm still trying to work out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. And what happens if we consider pins that aren't limited to just four decimal digits. If the old line that God created the natural numbers and the rest are the invention of Man, then pins seem to be the right sort of thing for angels to dance on. -j SignatureJeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ I rarely read top-posted, over-quoting or HTML postings. http://improve-usenet.org/ In article <alpine.OSX.1.10.0806231712550.7864@hagrid.ewd.goldmark.org>, > For example, I'm still trying to work > out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. So, have you got an interim ball-park figure as yet? Signaturedorayme > In article > <alpine.OSX.1.10.0806231712550.7864@hagrid.ewd.goldmark.org>, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > So, have you got an interim ball-park figure as yet? 4,101,298.4 Signatureemail to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com. In <doraymeRidThis-8E03B2.13165324062008@news-vip.optusnet.com.au>, dorayme...: >> For example, I'm still trying to work out how many angels can dance on >> the head of a pin. > > So, have you got an interim ball-park figure as yet? 42? -j SignatureJeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ I rarely read top-posted, over-quoting or HTML postings. http://improve-usenet.org/ In article <alpine.OSX.1.10.0806241125010.7864@hagrid.ewd.goldmark.org>, > >> For example, I'm still trying to work out how many angels can dance on > >> the head of a pin. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -j I like that one 8-) SignatureMary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar) You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo > In article > <alpine.OSX.1.10.0806241125010.7864@hagrid.ewd.goldmark.org>, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I like that one 8-) I'm with you on the 42 for sure! > Hello! > > Since newer Macs and their Mac OS X can do PC stuff with dual boot, > virtual programs (e.g., VMware and VirtualBox), use other OS (e.g., > Linux), etc. Would you consider them PCs now? Macs have always been personal computers (PCs). It is just that Microsoft hijacked the term. > > Hello! > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Macs have always been personal computers (PCs). It is just that Microsoft > hijacked the term. Beat me to it 8-) SignatureMary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar) You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo > > Hello! > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Macs have always been personal computers (PCs). It is just that Microsoft > hijacked the term. ITYM IBM hijacked the term. I remember stuff being sold as "IBM PC compatible." SignatureD.F. Manno | dfmanno@mail.com The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. (John Kenneth Galbraith) >Macs have always been personal computers (PCs). It is just that Microsoft >hijacked the term. Microsoft? When did Microsoft hijack it? I've seen Apple ads use it to describe Windows based computers. I saw IBM use "PC" to describe its personal computer. I've seen Compaq use the term "PC compatible". >> Macs have always been personal computers (PCs). It is just that Microsoft >> hijacked the term. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > describe its personal computer. I've seen Compaq use the term "PC > compatible". I also had two AT&T machines that were sold as "UNIX PCs". You are correct that there was many systems were branded as XYZ PCs. However, Microsoft did two things that feed the public's narrow minded understanding of the term Personal Computer. First and most importantly is their predatory marketing behavior that included building into contracts with PC vendors the requirement to ship machines with only MS Windows installed, thus equating a personal computer to a system running a MS OS. Second, their advertizing suggested the same notion - that a personal computer had to run Windows. Yea, it's quite funny how people do not realize that Macs and whatever other computer you are using are still Personal Computers. If people are ignorant to say that Mac's are not PC's, then what would you say about people dualbooting OS X along with Vista? On 6/25/08 7:09 AM, in article C4879FA9.41E5C1%rlhaar@comcast.net, "Robert Haar" <rlhaar@comcast.net> wrote: >>> Macs have always been personal computers (PCs). It is just that Microsoft >>> hijacked the term. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Second, their advertizing suggested the same notion - that a personal > computer had to run Windows. > Yea, it's quite funny how people do not realize that Macs and whatever other > computer you are using are still Personal Computers. If people are ignorant > to say that Mac's are not PC's, then what would you say about people > dualbooting OS X along with Vista? They're masochists? >Hello! > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >What do you guys think? Thank you in advance. :) To me a PC has always been a personal computer, so to me any inexpensive workstation or laptop is a PC. On a more technical level, the original IBM PC's legacy extends through many generations to modern Intel x86 hardware which is largely defined by a set of hardware which is largely identical to what you'd find inside a modern Mac. No matter how you define it, a modern Intel-based Mac is a PC and the only thing that could possibly keep it from being considered a PC is the proprietary code which ties OSX to Apple hardware but even that can be circumvented by people build "Hackintoshes" on generic non-Apple hardware. So really, there is no difference between a PC and a Mac these days except for the operating system and even that is a minor difference because many Mac users also run Windows on their machines through either Boot Camp or through a virtual machine like VMWare or Parallels. -- Cause, really, nothing says "I'm a counter culture rebel, fighting the establishment" like an Aibo on a skateboard. - Seen on Slashdot Roberto Castillo robertocastillo@ameritech.net http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/ http://zombie-gulch.myminicity.com/ > He argued it can't do > PC/Windows games, use all the latest and greatest PC peripherials and > cards from day 1, etc. Then he's wrong, that's what Boot Camp is for. > Hello! > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What do you guys think? Thank you in advance. :) Sounds like your friend is a troll and you took the bait. As did many others here. On 23/06/2008, Ant trolled. Please note that crossposting within the comp.sys.mac.* hierarchy is banned. Should you choose to follow-up, please post only to the group where your message is on-charter. Thank you for your help. Simon. Signaturehttp://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk |
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