IS THE JURY IN? Should I update from 10.3.9 to 10.5.x?
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holdmybeerandwatchthis - 21 Jun 2008 01:56 GMT I have an iMac G5 with PPC 1.8GHZ and 1Gb of ram. I am needing to do some web design and thought I would try iWeb '08. I will have to upgrade to Leopard to do it. I have tried tor read the reviews for Leopard at the Apple Store but can seem to get to them. Is Leopard the way to go, or is it a problem for my system? Thank you
Michael Vilain - 21 Jun 2008 02:58 GMT In article <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> I have an iMac G5 with PPC 1.8GHZ and 1Gb of ram. I am needing to do > some web design and thought I would try iWeb '08. I will have to > upgrade to Leopard to do it. I have tried tor read the reviews for > Leopard at the Apple Store but can seem to get to them. Is Leopard the > way to go, or is it a problem for my system? Thank you I can run iWeb'08 on 10.4, so I don't know where you're getting your information on iWeb'08 requiring 10.5. Can you point me to a product spec?
Anyway, you might 1GB of RAM to be rather tight for 10.5. It should be fine for 10.4. You might consider upgrading to that by getting a copy on eBay.
 Signature DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee... [I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically by ignored]
Dave Balderstone - 21 Jun 2008 03:05 GMT > In article > <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > fine for 10.4. You might consider upgrading to that by getting a copy > on eBay. Why would someone wanting to do web DESIGN want to use iWeb?
It's not a web design program, it's a web publishing program.
For web design there are many better options, including free text editors like TextWrangler.
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Robert Tomsick - 24 Jun 2008 15:08 GMT > Why would someone wanting to do web DESIGN want to use iWeb? > > It's not a web design program, it's a web publishing program. > > For web design there are many better options, including free text > editors like TextWrangler. Agreed. iWeb produces some god-awful code. The resulting pages are slow to load on most residential DSL lines. Learning HTML and CSS isn't that hard, and will allow you to make something that looks ten times better and uses one third the bandwidth.
Barry Margolin - 21 Jun 2008 03:11 GMT > In article > <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > information on iWeb'08 requiring 10.5. Can you point me to a product > spec? It requires an upgrade either way. If he has to upgrade, why shouldn't he upgrade to the current OS?
 Signature Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu Arlington, MA *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me *** *** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***
Michael Vilain - 21 Jun 2008 06:19 GMT > > In article > > <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > It requires an upgrade either way. If he has to upgrade, why shouldn't > he upgrade to the current OS? If he needs Classic, that's gone in 10.5. Aside from that, I'm sure there are more and more things that only run on 10.5. Sadly, I won't be running them anytime soon. I let developers know this as they've upgraded their packages to 10.5-only. They don't seem to care that much.
<plug type='shameless'> Except for the RealMacSoftware/RapidWeaver people who make a web site tool that's far superior to iWeb. The older version still runs on 10.3 but the newer version requires 10.5. Large developer community creating web site templates and plug-in extensions. The code it produces is so much better than iWeb.
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/21434 </plug>
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Jamie Kahn Genet - 21 Jun 2008 14:10 GMT > > In article > > <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > It requires an upgrade either way. If he has to upgrade, why shouldn't > he upgrade to the current OS? Why fix something that's not broken? If he upgrades to Leopard he'll have an OS with known issues (not just my personal experience, either - just google around and you'll see), have to spend more money on RAM (ok - not _absolutely_ necessary, but I wouldn't want to run Leopard in 1GB of RAM), possibly have to upgrade other apps that break under Leopard... etc, etc.
Doesn't seem worth it IMO.
Regards, Jamie Kahn Genet
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Tom Harrington - 21 Jun 2008 17:04 GMT > > > In article > > > <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > have an OS with known issues (not just my personal experience, either - > just google around and you'll see) You're kidding, right? You do realize that 10.4 has known issues as well, don't you? As does 10.3, 10.2, 10.1, and 10.0, and for that matter all versions of Windows, Linux, BSD, and any other operating system you might care to name. If your standard is having an OS with no known issues, you might as well just shut down the computer now and get rid of it. A yard sale might be best, since accessing Craigslist or eBay would require using an operating system with known issues.
 Signature Tom "Tom" Harrington Independent Mac OS X developer since 2002 http://www.atomicbird.com/
holdmybeerandwatchthis - 21 Jun 2008 21:54 GMT On Jun 21, 9:04 am, Tom Harrington <t...@pcisys.no.spam.dammit.net> wrote:
> In article <1iiww53.1ljnphc8dchj9N%jami...@wizardling.geek.nz>, > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Tom "Tom" Harrington > Independent Mac OS X developer since 2002http://www.atomicbird.com/ Ok, I thank everyone for their imput. I am going to upgrade to 10.4.11 and move forward. My goal here is to do some work on a non-profit's website. I really have no experience with site construction or development. Is iWeb a step in the right direction? I have been able to figure out most things on my mac for years, so I thought I would try to help with the website. Am I being reasonable? If so, should I go with iLife 06 or 08 ? thank you for all your knowledge.
holdmybeerandwatchthis - 21 Jun 2008 21:57 GMT On Jun 21, 1:54 pm, holdmybeerandwatchthis <robberydet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 21, 9:04 am, Tom Harrington <t...@pcisys.no.spam.dammit.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > try to help with the website. Am I being reasonable? If so, should I > go with iLife 06 or 08 ? thank you for all your knowledge. I might also add, the website I am looking to work on is stone axe simple. It may have a downloadable form and a link to a blog, but that is about it. JC
Mr. Strat - 22 Jun 2008 00:11 GMT In article <93cb7cad-fd2e-4271-affb-f03259d06a87@w34g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
> Ok, I thank everyone for their imput. I am going to upgrade to 10.4.11 > and move forward. My goal here is to do some work on a non-profit's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > try to help with the website. Am I being reasonable? If so, should I > go with iLife 06 or 08 ? thank you for all your knowledge. iWeb is pathetic. I use DreamWeaver. Purists use Notepad.
Michael Vilain - 22 Jun 2008 03:58 GMT > In article > <93cb7cad-fd2e-4271-affb-f03259d06a87@w34g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > iWeb is pathetic. I use DreamWeaver. Purists use Notepad. Did you check out RapidWeaver? When I helped a colleague setup her web site some years ago with Homepage, it looked like an amateur set it up. I took those same pages and redid them in iWeb and Rapidweaver. The iWeb pages displayed poorly on Windows Internet Explorer 6 and rather slowly. The Rapidweaver pages were fast and clean on IE6. And you do care that your site looks good to everyone, right? Not just Macintosh users?
If you're doing this for a non-profit and it's only got three pages, you're not gaining much by selecting iWeb over RapidWeaver ("Oh look George. This non-profit uses Macintoshes."). To get the full features of iWeb, you realize you must host the site on .Mac, right? Certain features like the page-counter and mail contact forms used to require .Mac to work. And open-source php scripts to run any sort of input form don't work on .Mac. If this isn't a problem or you just want to get this task off your plate (and leave future problems for someone else), iWeb will probably do for you.
If you want to do it _right_, you might want to look at other tools. Dreamweaver, as Mr. Strat so snippily posted, is the high end tool (and costs so--$399). There's also Freeway Express ($79) or Pro ($249). But these programs assume you want to lay out each page by hand or create a template and modify each page accordingly. It's like standing in front of an empty canvas with paints on a pallette. Nice if you know how to paint.
RapidWeaver is $59 (be sure to get the Tiger version--3.6). It works by allowing you to create pages within a site of various types -- styled text, a blog, a Photo gallery, a Movie page, contact form (reduces spam), or HTML. Then you apply one of the pre-defined site templates to your site and it's automatically formatted. You can change site-wide elements like subtitle or footer info from one place without editing multiple pages. Additional pages to do block and multi-column layouts, a photo collage, e-commerce, and even a simple code-managment system (CMS) are also available from 3rd-parties. Additional themes are also available from RealMac and 3rd-parties. When you're done with your site, you publish it locally to folder or to your web server by entering the server information (it handles regular ftp and secure sftp transfers).
iWeb requires you to create each page using a specific style defined by Apple's iWeb team. Each page is created and layed-out in a MacDraw-like manner. When you're done creating all your pages, you publish the site to .Mac or a folder, which requires you to ftp the files to the web server with a separate ftp program. iWeb out of the box handles 1 site at a time but with an extention can handle multiple sites:
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/31966 http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/29679
If you want to change something on multiple pages, like a subtitle, you edit each page.
Sandvox is where RapidWeaver was a couple years ago. When I looked at it last year, it crashed a lot and didn't seem to have the features that were currently available in Rapidweaver. It had a few new things that Rapidweaver incorporated into their latest release (ain't competition a great thing?), but it's still to early to tell if it's worth the extra money ($79 for their pro version which is the equivalent to RapidWeaver right out of the box). I also don't see the developer community as active as the Rapidweaver community.
For a while, Goldfish (http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/28748) languished and seemed like it wasn't going anywhere. It's $39.90 with lots themes but no extensions. Seems rather light-weight to me in my short look at it.
If this is way more than you want to invest in creating your web site, you should just upgrade to 10.4.11, use iWeb, and forget it. Otherwise, do a little research and you'll save yourself grief when the non-profit comes back and asks for more stuff. It will just get harder and harder to do in iWeb. Not a problem if this is just a one-off. But that's your call...
Good luck.
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Jolly Roger - 21 Jun 2008 23:36 GMT > > > In article > > > <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > have an OS with known issues (not just my personal experience, either - > just google around and you'll see) Every single Mac OS X release since 10.0 has issues that you can find with a Google search. Leopard is no different than Tiger, or any other release, in this respect.
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JR
Jamie Kahn Genet - 22 Jun 2008 05:41 GMT > > > > In article > > > > <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > with a Google search. Leopard is no different than Tiger, or any other > release, in this respect. Of course. But 10.3.9 and later versions of Tiger are well known for their stability. So far Leopard is definitly not. e.g. <http://awurl.com/llrqde95030#first_awesome_highlight>
Even Apple knows this - witness Snow Leopard which will focus on stability, not features.
Regards, Jamie Kahn Genet
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Walter Bushell - 22 Jun 2008 06:20 GMT > Even Apple knows this - witness Snow Leopard which will focus on > stability, not features. stability and performance with many cores
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Jolly Roger - 22 Jun 2008 17:10 GMT > > > > > In article > > > > > <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Even Apple knows this - witness Snow Leopard which will focus on > stability, not features. For all this talk about Leopard's supposed instability, I'm just not seeing it. And I'm running it on PowerPC hardware and Intel hardware - old computers and newer models.
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J.J. O'Shea - 22 Jun 2008 17:19 GMT >>>>>> In article >>>>>> <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > seeing it. And I'm running it on PowerPC hardware and Intel hardware - > old computers and newer models. Well, Leopard _is_ more unstable than Tiger. I've had more KPs with Leopard since I installed it last year (one) than I ever had with Tiger. There. See. It's obviously unusable.
Of course, this makes it just as unstable as Panther, and more stable than Jaguar (one and two KPs, respectively) and _far_ more stable than earlier versions (three KPs...) so I think that I'll keep it anyway.
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Jamie Kahn Genet - 22 Jun 2008 22:17 GMT > >>>>>> In article > >>>>>> <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > seeing it. And I'm running it on PowerPC hardware and Intel hardware - > > old computers and newer models. Well obviously not everyone is affected *envy* :-) But a lot more people have had issues than with the past couple versions of OSX.
> Well, Leopard _is_ more unstable than Tiger. I've had more KPs with Leopard > since I installed it last year (one) than I ever had with Tiger. There. See. > It's obviously unusable. Who said Leopard was unusable? Buggy - yes. Less stable than 10.3 and 10.4 - yes. But not unusable.
> Of course, this makes it just as unstable as Panther, and more stable than > Jaguar (one and two KPs, respectively) and _far_ more stable than earlier > versions (three KPs...) so I think that I'll keep it anyway. Bull. If you don't believe me I suggest you take a good look around the Mac news sites. They confirm Leopard has been more unstable and buggy than 10.3 or 10.4. Local Mac techs here confirm it. Even AppleCare techs have addmitted to me that this is the case.
I'm not trying to say Leopard is a disaster or should be avoided at all costs. That's just silly. Hell, I still use it every day. I just have a better experience on 10.3 and 10.4 Macs, and so do many others.
Regards, Jamie Kahn Genet
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TaliesinSoft - 22 Jun 2008 22:25 GMT [commenting on OS X 10 Leopard]
> Bull. If you don't believe me I suggest you take a good look around the > Mac news sites. They confirm Leopard has been more unstable and buggy than > 10.3 or 10.4. Local Mac techs here confirm it. Even AppleCare techs have > addmitted to me that this is the case. I moved to Leopard the day it was released and am currently using 10.5.3, again something I installed the day it was available. all I can say is that my experiences with Leopard have been fine and I've only encountered a single (very minor to me) bug in that the font auto-activation feature was broken with 10.5.1 and hasn't yet been fixed.
> I'm not trying to say Leopard is a disaster or should be avoided at all > costs. That's just silly. Hell, I still use it every day. I just have a > better experience on 10.3 and 10.4 Macs, and so do many others. I don't understand how Jamie Kahn can experience so many problems. Perhaps he is just one living under the black cloud.
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J.J. O'Shea - 22 Jun 2008 22:54 GMT > [commenting on OS X 10 Leopard] > >> Bull. If you don't believe me I suggest you take a good look around the >> Mac news sites. They confirm Leopard has been more unstable and buggy than >> 10.3 or 10.4. Local Mac techs here confirm it. Even AppleCare techs have >> addmitted to me that this is the case. This is not the case here.
> I moved to Leopard the day it was released My copy was shipped to me the day it was released. I installed it as soon as it arrived.
> and am currently using 10.5.3, > again something I installed the day it was available. Same here.
> all I can say is that > my experiences with Leopard have been fine and I've only encountered a single
> (very minor to me) bug in that the font auto-activation feature was broken > with 10.5.1 and hasn't yet been fixed. Just the one KP. And that was when I tried to launch Vista under VMWare, and Vista barfed. (A WGA problem, to be precise. I screamed to Mickeysoft. They are investigating.) So the total _Apple-related_ problems I've had with Leopard amount to... zero.
>> I'm not trying to say Leopard is a disaster or should be avoided at all >> costs. That's just silly. Hell, I still use it every day. I just have a >> better experience on 10.3 and 10.4 Macs, and so do many others. > > I don't understand how Jamie Kahn can experience so many problems. Perhaps he
> is just one living under the black cloud. There can be no doubt.
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Jamie Kahn Genet - 22 Jun 2008 23:14 GMT > > [commenting on OS X 10 Leopard] > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > There can be no doubt. Well the Mac press has obviously been blinded by just my troubles. I had no idea my influence was so great! :-)
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Leonard Blaisdell - 24 Jun 2008 02:38 GMT > I moved to Leopard the day it was released and am currently using 10.5.3, > again something I installed the day it was available. all I can say is that > my experiences with Leopard have been fine and I've only encountered a single > (very minor to me) bug in that the font auto-activation feature was broken > with 10.5.1 and hasn't yet been fixed. I had annoying issues at first with 10.5.0. The most startling was the OS not recognizing my admin password to update itself. Ah, those were the days.
> I don't understand how Jamie Kahn can experience so many problems. Perhaps he > is just one living under the black cloud. Perhaps Jamie Kahn Genet is a pseudonym for Joe Btfsplk.
leo
Jamie Kahn Genet - 24 Jun 2008 03:48 GMT > > I moved to Leopard the day it was released and am currently using > > 10.5.3, again something I installed the day it was available. all I can [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > leo Pardon me?
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J.J. O'Shea - 24 Jun 2008 05:56 GMT >>> I moved to Leopard the day it was released and am currently using >>> 10.5.3, again something I installed the day it was available. all I can [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Pardon me? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Btfsplk>
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Jamie Kahn Genet - 24 Jun 2008 11:24 GMT > >>> I moved to Leopard the day it was released and am currently using > >>> 10.5.3, again something I installed the day it was available. all I can [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Btfsplk> Oh, heh. Well, I'm not quite up to that standard yet. I had mostly trouble-free computing between 10.3 and 10.4. Back in the days of classic things occasionally got dicy, but fixes were simpler back then as well.
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Barry Margolin - 22 Jun 2008 03:27 GMT > > > In article > > > <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Why fix something that's not broken? But he IS broken. The application he wants to run doesn't run on the OS he has.
> If he upgrades to Leopard he'll > have an OS with known issues And Panther and Tiger have no known issues?
 Signature Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu Arlington, MA *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me *** *** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***
Jamie Kahn Genet - 22 Jun 2008 05:41 GMT > > > > In article > > > > <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > But he IS broken. The application he wants to run doesn't run on the OS > he has. Wrong <http://www.apple.com/ilife/systemrequirements.html>
> > If he upgrades to Leopard he'll > > have an OS with known issues > > And Panther and Tiger have no known issues? Far less than Leopard in my experience and that of many others.
e.g. From just a couple days ago: <http://www.applelinks.com/index.php/more/using_two_os_x_versions_and_tw o_new_browsers_back_to_back_os_x_odyssey_973/>
If you like can pull a dozen more such examples from respected Mac pundits. That just happens to be the most recent I've noticed.
Regards, Jamie Kahn Genet
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Barry Margolin - 22 Jun 2008 05:48 GMT > > > > > In article > > > > > <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Wrong <http://www.apple.com/ilife/systemrequirements.html> It says 10.4.9 is required. He has 10.3.9.
 Signature Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu Arlington, MA *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me *** *** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***
Jamie Kahn Genet - 22 Jun 2008 08:28 GMT > > > > > > In article > > > > > > <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > It says 10.4.9 is required. He has 10.3.9. I must've missed that... *confused* Where did he say that?
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Barry Margolin - 22 Jun 2008 14:23 GMT > > > > > Why fix something that's not broken? > > > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I must've missed that... *confused* Where did he say that? It's in the Subject line.
 Signature Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu Arlington, MA *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me *** *** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***
Jolly Roger - 22 Jun 2008 17:11 GMT > > > > > > Why fix something that's not broken? > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > It's in the Subject line. Ugh... I hate when people include details only in the subject line and I miss them as a result!
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JR
Jamie Kahn Genet - 22 Jun 2008 22:17 GMT > > > > > > > Why fix something that's not broken? > > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Ugh... I hate when people include details only in the subject line and I > miss them as a result! LMAO! Of gods I feel dumb! LOL Can we pretend this never happened? Please? Guys... Stop laughing! :-D
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Jolly Roger - 23 Jun 2008 04:53 GMT > > > > > > > > Why fix something that's not broken? > > > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > LMAO! Of gods I feel dumb! LOL Can we pretend this never happened? > Please? Guys... Stop laughing! :-D Happens to us all. : )
 Signature Please send all responses to the relevant news group rather than directly to me, as E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google Groups. You'll need to use a real news reader if you want me to see your posts.
JR
Jamie Kahn Genet - 21 Jun 2008 14:10 GMT > In article > <62715779-df21-4e53-a72a-209e0b1a2867@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > information on iWeb'08 requiring 10.5. Can you point me to a product > spec? Runs fine on a Mac running Tiger that I support :-)
> Anyway, you might 1GB of RAM to be rather tight for 10.5. It should be > fine for 10.4. You might consider upgrading to that by getting a copy > on eBay. Agreed. it's doable, but not exactly advisable unless you're a spinning beachball fan :-)
Personally I'd suggest you save yourself the hassle and expense of upgrading your OS, and just purchase a copy of iLife '08 to use with Tiger. Then when Snow Leopard arrives I'd upgrade to a brand new Intel Mac then, as by that time Tiger support will be being dropped by many apps and Apple themselves (if past trends hold up).
But right now an iMac G5 with Tiger is a fine machine with rock solid (IME) OS :-) I little extra RAM couldn't hurt, but I like to keep a couple dozen apps open at once. YMMV :-)
Regards, Jamie Kahn Genet
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