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Mac Forum / Applications / Mac Applications / June 2008



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SuperDuper! & Time Machine

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Jim Higgins - 03 Jun 2008 02:40 GMT
Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its
bootable backups?

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Civis Romanus Sum

Richard Maine - 03 Jun 2008 04:12 GMT
> Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its
> bootable backups?

They really do different things. It isn't that one is better than the
other. They are different. I do both.

An immediately bootable and usable clone is a nice thing. SD does that.

But that doesn't help at all if you discover that you messed up
something last week... and you've subsequently done an SD clone. TM
helps with that.

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Richard Maine                    | Good judgement comes from experience;
email: last name at domain . net | experience comes from bad judgement.
domain: summertriangle           |  -- Mark Twain

Jim Higgins - 03 Jun 2008 12:49 GMT
>> Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its
>> bootable backups?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> something last week... and you've subsequently done an SD clone. TM
> helps with that.

Thanks, I am more concerned with a bootable backup than previous
versions of a file.

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Civis Romanus Sum

Johan W. Elzenga - 03 Jun 2008 13:28 GMT
> >> Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its
> >> bootable backups?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Thanks, I am more concerned with a bootable backup than previous
> versions of a file.

Interesting. I find that I've only needed a bootable backup two times in
my entire 'computer life', which spans more than 30 years now. I cannot
say the same thing about backups of a single file...

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Johan W. Elzenga           johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl
Editor / Photographer     http://www.johanfoto.com

Mike Rosenberg - 03 Jun 2008 13:44 GMT
> > Thanks, I am more concerned with a bootable backup than previous
> > versions of a file.
>
> Interesting. I find that I've only needed a bootable backup two times in
> my entire 'computer life', which spans more than 30 years now. I cannot
> say the same thing about backups of a single file...

Personally, I've never needed my bootable backup, although I can think
of a dozen or so clients who dearly wish they'd had one prior to
learning their lesson the hard way. In contrast, I've already used my TM
backup to recover individual files or emails 4-5 times since installing
Leopard.

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Jim Higgins - 03 Jun 2008 13:52 GMT
>>> Thanks, I am more concerned with a bootable backup than previous
>>> versions of a file.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> backup to recover individual files or emails 4-5 times since installing
> Leopard.

I'm only an individual user more concerned with having a duplicate of my
 HDD available.

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Civis Romanus Sum

Mike Rosenberg - 03 Jun 2008 14:08 GMT
> I'm only an individual user more concerned with having a duplicate of my
>   HDD available.

Understood. I was pointing out that, on an individual Mac basis, the
odds of needing to restore an occasional file or two are A LOT greater
than needing to restore an entire volume. I'll tell you, there's nothing
quite like setting up a bootable clone backup system for someone only to
have them say a while later, "What do you mean I can't recover that file
I accidentally deleted last week?"

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Johan W. Elzenga - 03 Jun 2008 17:25 GMT
> > I'm only an individual user more concerned with having a duplicate of my
> >   HDD available.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> have them say a while later, "What do you mean I can't recover that file
> I accidentally deleted last week?"

That was exactly my point too. When people talk about backups, they
usually talk about protection against hard disk failure. In reality
however, backups are far more often needed to retrieve one single file
that was accidently deleted or got corrupted.

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Johan W. Elzenga           johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl
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Jolly Roger - 03 Jun 2008 18:06 GMT
> > > I'm only an individual user more concerned with having a duplicate of my
> > >   HDD available.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> however, backups are far more often needed to retrieve one single file
> that was accidently deleted or got corrupted.

Yes! And in those situations, preserving permissions, ACLs, ownership,
and so on may not be as important. This is why I still rely on
Retrospect tape backups for my backup solution today.

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You'll need to use a real news reader if you want me to see your posts.

JR

TaliesinSoft - 03 Jun 2008 04:34 GMT
> Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its
> bootable backups?

Time Machine and SuperDuper! perform "complimentary" services, Time Machine
providing a means by which you can restore deleted or prior versions of
files, and SuperDuper! providing a means for quickly recovering from such as
a disk crash

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James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com

Morten Dreier - 03 Jun 2008 14:36 GMT
> Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its
> bootable backups?

For pure backup, TimeMachine is preferrable because it preserves
historical data. If you wrote over a file two months ago, your
daily/weekly SuperDuper can't help you. It is a backup system that not
only backs up your files, but also all versions of your files
incrementally - so that you don't have to have 4 times the backupspace
for 4 backups.
SuperDuper, on the other hand, takes snapshots of running systems - and
does that well - especially when you have bought a new system harddrive
for your mac and don't want to reinstall.

I use TimeMachine for backup and SuperDuper for cloning disks.

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aRKay - 03 Jun 2008 14:50 GMT
In article
<66mdnZknFttvPdnVnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology>,

> Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its
> bootable backups?

No but using both is like a belt and suspenders. If one had to go, I
would ditch the Time Machine and stay with SuperDuper.
Richard Maine - 03 Jun 2008 17:19 GMT
> In article
> <66mdnZknFttvPdnVnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology>,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> No but using both is like a belt and suspenders.

Hey. I happen to use a belt and suspenders. They also have 2 different
purposes. The suspenders are to hold the pants up. The belt is to hang
things from.

Of course, I'm in no danger of being called stylish, but that's more
than fine with me. :-)

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Richard Maine                    | Good judgement comes from experience;
email: last name at domain . net | experience comes from bad judgement.
domain: summertriangle           |  -- Mark Twain

Johan W. Elzenga - 03 Jun 2008 17:25 GMT
> In article
> <66mdnZknFttvPdnVnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology>,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> No but using both is like a belt and suspenders. If one had to go, I
> would ditch the Time Machine and stay with SuperDuper.

And I would do the exact opposite. You can boot from the install DVD and
then restore an entire disk from a Time Mchine backup. That is almost as
good as booting from the backup. But you cannot retrieve an accidently
deleted file or a corrupted file from a clone if you discover after you
last cloned that the file was deleted/corrupted.

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Johan W. Elzenga           johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl
Editor / Photographer     http://www.johanfoto.com

Fred Moore - 03 Jun 2008 21:05 GMT
> > In article
> > <66mdnZknFttvPdnVnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology>,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> then restore an entire disk from a Time Mchine backup. That is almost as
> good as booting from the backup.

Well, (and please correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have direct
experience) I recently read that a fellow with a moderate-sized HD, say
250GB, took 16 hours to do a TM restore. SD! or Disk Utility for that
matter could do the same restore in under an hour.

> But you cannot retrieve an accidently
> deleted file or a corrupted file from a clone if you discover after you
> last cloned that the file was deleted/corrupted.

SD! could be programmed to do a 'Smart Update' (just changed files)
every hour if you wanted to do that. Actually, in professional
situations with Mac towers, I recommend using both TM (hourly/daily to a
secondary internal drive) and SD! (daily or every few days to an
external which can be swapped out off-site if desired). You can get back
up and running quickly with minimal file-loss risk. This is gross
overkill for most home users however.

--Fred
Mike Rosenberg - 03 Jun 2008 21:20 GMT
> Well, (and please correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have direct
> experience) I recently read that a fellow with a moderate-sized HD, say
> 250GB, took 16 hours to do a TM restore.

Without knowing any details whatsoever, it's really next to impossible
to evaluate this.  I did a test run with a backup containing about 125
GB total of current files (i.e. that's what needed to be restored) on a
500 GB SATA drive in a USB 2.0 enclosure, restoring to a 400 GB drive in
a Quad 2.5 GHz G5, and it took around 3.5 hours.

> SD! or Disk Utility for that
> matter could do the same restore in under an hour.

Moving 250 GB of data?  You're grossly underestimating.

> > But you cannot retrieve an accidently
> > deleted file or a corrupted file from a clone if you discover after you
> > last cloned that the file was deleted/corrupted.
>
> SD! could be programmed to do a 'Smart Update' (just changed files)
> every hour if you wanted to do that.

That's not the same as an archival backup by any means. Older versions
of those changed files are _not_ retained, nor are files that have been
deleted.

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Fred Moore - 04 Jun 2008 19:20 GMT
> > Well, (and please correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have direct
> > experience) I recently read that a fellow with a moderate-sized HD, say
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> 500 GB SATA drive in a USB 2.0 enclosure, restoring to a 400 GB drive in
> a Quad 2.5 GHz G5, and it took around 3.5 hours.

Right, Mike, I realize my comments call for a certain amount of
speculation. I'm just trying to get a handle on the relative performance
of TM vs SD because there have been some comments that TM has a great
deal of overhead which slows down a restore.

> > SD! or Disk Utility for that
> > matter could do the same restore in under an hour.
>
> Moving 250 GB of data?  You're grossly underestimating.

Well, let's run a few approximate numbers (and I don't want to get in an
argument about how many MB there are in a GB; these are
back-of-the-envelope calculations; specs are from Apple and Wikipedia):

** From the Apple Store I checked the advertised speed of the SATA disks
in a Mac Pro, that's Apple's current top-of-the-line tower. Their claim
is
    3GB/sec   or 10,800GB/hr  = 0.023hr = 1.4min for 250GB of data
This seems grossly optimistic given the next item. Perhaps it's a max
for a RAID.

** The advertised max transfer rate for an Hitachi Deskstar 1TB drive is
    1GB/sec   or  3,600GB/hr  = 0.069hr = 4.2min
This is exactly the kind of drive which one might put in a Mac Pro.

** But let's say reality (various overheads) is 1/2 the above
    1/2GB/sec or  1,800GB/hr  = 0.14hr = 8.3min

And let's compare to various other specs,

** eSATA is
    300MB/sec or  1,080GB/hr  = 0.23hr = 14min

** Let's say real eSATA is half that
    150MB/sec or    540GB/hr  = 0.46hr = 28min

** FW800 which _does_ get almost its spec is
     98MB/sec or    353GB/hr  = 0.71hr = 43min

** USB 2 spec is
     60MB/sec or    216GB/hr  = 1.18hr = 69min

** USB 2 reality is more like
     30MB/sec or    108GB/hr  = 2.31hr = 139min

** USB 1 spec (just for the hell of it)
    1.5MB/sec or    5.4GB/hr  = 46.3hr = 2778min

So according to these numbers, FW800 and faster _should_ be able to do a
restore of 250GB of data in an hour or less. Anything more would seem to
be system or app overhead. Even real USB 2 should restore your 125GB of
data in just over an hour, but you say it took TM 3.5 hrs total. I'm not
disputing your numbers. I'm just trying to get a handle on the what,
where, and why of the seemingly large overhead with TM.

> > > But you cannot retrieve an accidently
> > > deleted file or a corrupted file from a clone if you discover after you
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> That's not the same as an archival backup by any means. Older versions
> of those changed files are _not_ retained,

Yes, you're absolutely right. You'd handle this with multiple complete
backup with SD. Easy retrieval of recent docs is certainly one of TM's
strengths; quick restore of an operable system to get a crashed machine
up and running again apparently isn't.

> nor are files that have been
> deleted.

Actually, you can set a pref in SD to _not_ remove deleted files from
the backup, if that's what you want.

So tell me what you think of my analysis.

and

In article <1ihzdj6.bfd9tg1lghdpkN%nomail@please.invalid>,
nomail@please.invalid (Johan W. Elzenga) wrote:

> My guess is that he used an USB 1.1 disk.

Based on the numbers above USB 1 would have take almost 2 _days_.  :/

> I recently bought a new
> MacBook Pro and moved all the data from the old PowerBook by using a TM
> backup, and I was up and running in about an hour. OK, that was 80 GB or
> so, not 250 GB, but that would have meant 3 hours for 250 GB.

Johan, your results consistent with Mike's numbers, which reinforces the
question about TM overhead.

--Fred
Richard Maine - 04 Jun 2008 21:28 GMT
> there have been some comments that TM has a great
> deal of overhead which slows down a restore.

That makes no sense. Who has made these comments about he alleged
"overhead"? Basically, no, TM has no overhead in the storage system, so
that nonexistant overhead couldn't very well slow down a restore. If you
have a slow restore, then it must be for some other reason. Trying to
translate specs for disk transfer rate into observable performance in
real tasks is a non-trivial matter. There are lots of issues that can
come into play there. I don't think I'll even try to list them. But TM
overhead isn't one of them, because there isn't any. TM uses a plain old
HFS+ storage system. The only thing the least bit unusual about it is
the symlinks to directories, which doesn't constitute overhead and
wouldn't affect restores.

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Richard Maine                    | Good judgement comes from experience;
email: last name at domain . net | experience comes from bad judgement.
domain: summertriangle           |  -- Mark Twain

David Empson - 05 Jun 2008 08:57 GMT
> > > Well, (and please correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have direct
> > > experience) I recently read that a fellow with a moderate-sized HD, say
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> This seems grossly optimistic given the next item. Perhaps it's a max
> for a RAID.

That should be 3 Gigabits per second for SATA-2, not 3 GigaBYTES per
second. Actual maximum speed after protocol overhead is 300 MB/sec, so
these numbers are out by a factor of ten.

The original SATA was 1.5 Gbps or 150 MB/s (which was an improvement
over ATA-133, at 133 MB/s).

> ** The advertised max transfer rate for an Hitachi Deskstar 1TB drive is
>      1GB/sec   or  3,600GB/hr  = 0.069hr = 4.2min
> This is exactly the kind of drive which one might put in a Mac Pro.

That number also seems to be out by a significant factor. Real hard
drives have best transfer rates in the order of 100 MB/s. It could only
achieve 1 GB/s if reading out of a RAM cache on the drive, and no hard
drive interface is fast enough to deliver that much throughput.

> ** But let's say reality (various overheads) is 1/2 the above
>      1/2GB/sec or  1,800GB/hr  = 0.14hr = 8.3min
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> ** Let's say real eSATA is half that
>      150MB/sec or    540GB/hr  = 0.46hr = 28min

I don't have any direct experience with eSATA, but it should be able to
achieve the same speeds as SATA. The drive is typically the limit, not
the interface. For a striped multi-drive RAID, the interface might be a
limit.

> ** FW800 which _does_ get almost its spec is
>       98MB/sec or    353GB/hr  = 0.71hr = 43min

For a single drive, the drive is usually the limiting factor with FW800.
My Seagate Barracuda (7200 rpm 3.5") 500 GB drive achieves a best
throughput in the order of 60 MB/s on FW800. (It drops to 40 MB/s for
FW400, 30 MB/s for USB 2.0.)

> ** USB 2 spec is
>       60MB/sec or    216GB/hr  = 1.18hr = 69min
>
> ** USB 2 reality is more like
>       30MB/sec or    108GB/hr  = 2.31hr = 139min

Agreed. I've never seen USB 2.0 transfer data faster than 30 MB/s.
PowerPC Macs tend to be much slower than Intel ones. PowerBook G4s I've
tried never got faster than 20 MB/s on USB 2.0.

> ** USB 1 spec (just for the hell of it)
>      1.5MB/sec or    5.4GB/hr  = 46.3hr = 2778min

And you have to halve that speed to get a realistic maximum transfer
rate.

> So according to these numbers, FW800 and faster _should_ be able to do a
> restore of 250GB of data in an hour or less. Anything more would seem to
> be system or app overhead. Even real USB 2 should restore your 125GB of
> data in just over an hour, but you say it took TM 3.5 hrs total. I'm not
> disputing your numbers. I'm just trying to get a handle on the what,
> where, and why of the seemingly large overhead with TM.

The above numbers don't take into account the speed of the other drive:
if restoring to a laptop (2.5") drive, don't expect transfer rates to
exceed about 30 MB/s, which is what the 160 GB drive in my MacBook Pro
can manage.

The most significant delaying factor is overhead when dealing with small
files.

If you are copying large files, the actual transfer rate can be very
close to the theoretical limit of the drive and/or bus. Most of the time
is spent actually shunting vast amounts of data from one drive to the
other.

If you are copying a lot of small files, the transfer rate drops
dramatically. For each file copied, the system has to update the
directory information (metadata). This isn't written to the disk
constantly, but it has to be updated immediately in memory, and is
flushed to disk reasonably often.

In addition, the system typically only requests a small amount of data
to be read from the source drive, and written to the destination drive,
because it copies one file at a time. This may involve seeking and
rotational latency. The source drive's cache won't help much when doing
lots of small read requests, unless the files are stored sequentially
(no fragmentation and the files are being copied in the same order they
were originally written) and the drive is smart enough to read ahead.

The protocol overhead for all these small I/O requests is also
significant. Rather than sending one request to the drive to transfer
several megabytes, the computer is sending hundreds of requests, each
asking for a few kilobytes. Each of these requests has to be generated
by the CPU, sent over the interface to the drive, and processed by the
drive controller.

I've observed this pattern with all backup methods. If I'm backing up my
computer, most of it goes quite slowly, until it hits my iTunes library:
it is then copying about 4 MB per file, and this goes substantially
faster than copying the dozens of small files that make up typical
applications or system packages. Maximum speed is achieved while backing
up my VMware Fusion disk image (several gigabytes in a single file).

I did a full system backup of my MacBook Pro with SuperDuper! just
before installing 10.5.3. It backed up about 120 GB via Firewire 800 in
somewhat more than two hours. I would expect a restore to go a little
faster, because the backup drive has all the data stored sequentially
(no fragmentation). I don't have a comparitive figure for Time Machine,
as I haven't used it to do a full backup of the computer (only my data
files).

Time Machine does have some additional overhead when doing a backup,
because it has to maintain the hard links and some additional metadata
(extended attributes) for each file. When restoring, some of this
metadata has to be removed, so I'd expect a greater degree of overhead
than when doing a restore from a SD clone.

In addition, the TM backup will be heavily fragmented due to recently
modified files being grouped together at the tail end of the backup,
with earlier unmodified files being scattered all over the place. This
means a lot more seeking is required to read all the files that make up
a single "unified" backup. I expect this would significantly slow down
restoring from TM compared to a SD backup.

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David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

Fred Moore - 05 Jun 2008 18:02 GMT
> >      3GB/sec   or 10,800GB/hr  = 0.023hr = 1.4min for 250GB of data
> > This seems grossly optimistic given the next item. Perhaps it's a max
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> second. Actual maximum speed after protocol overhead is 300 MB/sec, so
> these numbers are out by a factor of ten.

DAMN! Thank you, David. You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! Despite my best
efforts, I'm always misreading b and B in these specs. I very much
appreciate your correcting me.

> The original SATA was 1.5 Gbps or 150 MB/s (which was an improvement
> over ATA-133, at 133 MB/s).
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> > ** But let's say reality (various overheads) is 1/2 the above
> >      1/2GB/sec or  1,800GB/hr  = 0.14hr = 8.3min

And right again. The corrected numbers (dividing by 8) should be
     3G*bits*/sec   or  1,350G*Bytes*/hr  = 0.18hr = 11min
     1G*bits*/sec   or    450G*Bytes*/hr  = 0.56hr = 33min
   1/2G*bits*/sec   or    225G*Bytes*/hr  = 1.1hr  = 67min

I think the rest of the numbers (below) are correct.

> > And let's compare to various other specs,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> throughput in the order of 60 MB/s on FW800. (It drops to 40 MB/s for
> FW400, 30 MB/s for USB 2.0.)

So that's about 60% of spec for FW800 and about 80% for FW400. IIRC I've
been getting 80% for FW800 and 90% for FW400, but I don't have recent
hard numbers to back that up. Maybe it's the reversed Coriolis Effect
since you're in eNZed. ;)

> > ** USB 2 spec is
> >       60MB/sec or    216GB/hr  = 1.18hr = 69min
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> And you have to halve that speed to get a realistic maximum transfer
> rate.

Right again. I left that out since 46 hrs for a restore was absurd
enough.

> > So according to these numbers, FW800 and faster _should_ be able to do a
> > restore of 250GB of data in an hour or less. Anything more would seem to
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
> a single "unified" backup. I expect this would significantly slow down
> restoring from TM compared to a SD backup.

Thanks, David, for taking the time to put together such a cogent and
thorough elucidation of this issue. And thanks again for catching my
bit/byte blunder. Help yourself to some of that exquisite New Zealand
boysenberry ice cream and send me the bill.  ;)

--Fred
Johan W. Elzenga - 03 Jun 2008 21:41 GMT
> > And I would do the exact opposite. You can boot from the install DVD and
> > then restore an entire disk from a Time Mchine backup. That is almost as
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> experience) I recently read that a fellow with a moderate-sized HD, say
> 250GB, took 16 hours to do a TM restore.

My guess is that he used an USB 1.1 disk. I recently bought a new
MacBook Pro and moved all the data from the old PowerBook by using a TM
backup, and I was up and running in about an hour. OK, that was 80 GB or
so, not 250 GB, but that would have meant 3 hours for 250 GB.

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Johan W. Elzenga           johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl
Editor / Photographer     http://www.johanfoto.com

AES - 03 Jun 2008 23:26 GMT
In article
<arkayREMOVE-DC0001.08503603062008@news.houston.sbcglobal.net>,

> > Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its
> > bootable backups?

No -- but only because they do totally _different_ things, and it
depends on which you want -- or maybe you want both.

SuperDuper! does _backups_, meaning essentially instantaneous snapshots
of your Mac HD.  If you do an initial SD backup on Monday, with File X
on your Mac, File X is now in that SD backup as well as on your Mac.  

On Tuesday, without being aware of it or realizing it, you accidently
delete File X, so it's gone from your Mac.

On Wednesday you again do an SD backup (commonly called an "incremental
backup"), which modifies the previous SD backup to be exactly like your
Mac is _on Wednesday_ when you do the new backup.  That's how SD works.

On Thursday, you realize you can't find File X on your Mac.  You look
for it on the SD backup; it isn't there either.  It's gone.

Time Machine does _archiving_.  In the same example as above it takes an  
initial full snapshot of your Mac on Monday; File X is in that snapshot.

On Wednesday it takes another snapshot of your Mac as it is on Wednesday
-- with no FIle X -- but to minimize space requirements it basically
just records the _changes_ (additions and deletions) from Monday,
keeping the full Monday snapshot.  The backup file gets a bit bigger,
but not too much.

On Thursday you realize File X is gone from your Mac.  You can go back
through the Wednesday snapshot and not find it, but if you go back to
the Monday snapshot, you'll find it.

The actual functioning is a bit more complex, but that's how it
basically works.  It makes frequent snapshots as you work; thins out the
older snapshots as more time passes; but provides you in essence with an
archive where you can, in fact, travel back in time to any earlier date,
and see what was on your Mac at that earlier date.
 
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