SuperDuper! & Time Machine
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Jim Higgins - 03 Jun 2008 02:40 GMT Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its bootable backups?
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Richard Maine - 03 Jun 2008 04:12 GMT > Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its > bootable backups? They really do different things. It isn't that one is better than the other. They are different. I do both.
An immediately bootable and usable clone is a nice thing. SD does that.
But that doesn't help at all if you discover that you messed up something last week... and you've subsequently done an SD clone. TM helps with that.
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Jim Higgins - 03 Jun 2008 12:49 GMT >> Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its >> bootable backups? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > something last week... and you've subsequently done an SD clone. TM > helps with that. Thanks, I am more concerned with a bootable backup than previous versions of a file.
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Johan W. Elzenga - 03 Jun 2008 13:28 GMT > >> Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its > >> bootable backups? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Thanks, I am more concerned with a bootable backup than previous > versions of a file. Interesting. I find that I've only needed a bootable backup two times in my entire 'computer life', which spans more than 30 years now. I cannot say the same thing about backups of a single file...
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Mike Rosenberg - 03 Jun 2008 13:44 GMT > > Thanks, I am more concerned with a bootable backup than previous > > versions of a file. > > Interesting. I find that I've only needed a bootable backup two times in > my entire 'computer life', which spans more than 30 years now. I cannot > say the same thing about backups of a single file... Personally, I've never needed my bootable backup, although I can think of a dozen or so clients who dearly wish they'd had one prior to learning their lesson the hard way. In contrast, I've already used my TM backup to recover individual files or emails 4-5 times since installing Leopard.
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Jim Higgins - 03 Jun 2008 13:52 GMT >>> Thanks, I am more concerned with a bootable backup than previous >>> versions of a file. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > backup to recover individual files or emails 4-5 times since installing > Leopard. I'm only an individual user more concerned with having a duplicate of my HDD available.
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Mike Rosenberg - 03 Jun 2008 14:08 GMT > I'm only an individual user more concerned with having a duplicate of my > HDD available. Understood. I was pointing out that, on an individual Mac basis, the odds of needing to restore an occasional file or two are A LOT greater than needing to restore an entire volume. I'll tell you, there's nothing quite like setting up a bootable clone backup system for someone only to have them say a while later, "What do you mean I can't recover that file I accidentally deleted last week?"
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Johan W. Elzenga - 03 Jun 2008 17:25 GMT > > I'm only an individual user more concerned with having a duplicate of my > > HDD available. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > have them say a while later, "What do you mean I can't recover that file > I accidentally deleted last week?" That was exactly my point too. When people talk about backups, they usually talk about protection against hard disk failure. In reality however, backups are far more often needed to retrieve one single file that was accidently deleted or got corrupted.
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Jolly Roger - 03 Jun 2008 18:06 GMT > > > I'm only an individual user more concerned with having a duplicate of my > > > HDD available. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > however, backups are far more often needed to retrieve one single file > that was accidently deleted or got corrupted. Yes! And in those situations, preserving permissions, ACLs, ownership, and so on may not be as important. This is why I still rely on Retrospect tape backups for my backup solution today.
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TaliesinSoft - 03 Jun 2008 04:34 GMT > Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its > bootable backups? Time Machine and SuperDuper! perform "complimentary" services, Time Machine providing a means by which you can restore deleted or prior versions of files, and SuperDuper! providing a means for quickly recovering from such as a disk crash
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Morten Dreier - 03 Jun 2008 14:36 GMT > Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its > bootable backups? For pure backup, TimeMachine is preferrable because it preserves historical data. If you wrote over a file two months ago, your daily/weekly SuperDuper can't help you. It is a backup system that not only backs up your files, but also all versions of your files incrementally - so that you don't have to have 4 times the backupspace for 4 backups. SuperDuper, on the other hand, takes snapshots of running systems - and does that well - especially when you have bought a new system harddrive for your mac and don't want to reinstall.
I use TimeMachine for backup and SuperDuper for cloning disks.
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aRKay - 03 Jun 2008 14:50 GMT In article <66mdnZknFttvPdnVnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology>,
> Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its > bootable backups? No but using both is like a belt and suspenders. If one had to go, I would ditch the Time Machine and stay with SuperDuper.
Richard Maine - 03 Jun 2008 17:19 GMT > In article > <66mdnZknFttvPdnVnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology>, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > No but using both is like a belt and suspenders. Hey. I happen to use a belt and suspenders. They also have 2 different purposes. The suspenders are to hold the pants up. The belt is to hang things from.
Of course, I'm in no danger of being called stylish, but that's more than fine with me. :-)
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Johan W. Elzenga - 03 Jun 2008 17:25 GMT > In article > <66mdnZknFttvPdnVnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology>, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No but using both is like a belt and suspenders. If one had to go, I > would ditch the Time Machine and stay with SuperDuper. And I would do the exact opposite. You can boot from the install DVD and then restore an entire disk from a Time Mchine backup. That is almost as good as booting from the backup. But you cannot retrieve an accidently deleted file or a corrupted file from a clone if you discover after you last cloned that the file was deleted/corrupted.
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Fred Moore - 03 Jun 2008 21:05 GMT > > In article > > <66mdnZknFttvPdnVnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > then restore an entire disk from a Time Mchine backup. That is almost as > good as booting from the backup. Well, (and please correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have direct experience) I recently read that a fellow with a moderate-sized HD, say 250GB, took 16 hours to do a TM restore. SD! or Disk Utility for that matter could do the same restore in under an hour.
> But you cannot retrieve an accidently > deleted file or a corrupted file from a clone if you discover after you > last cloned that the file was deleted/corrupted. SD! could be programmed to do a 'Smart Update' (just changed files) every hour if you wanted to do that. Actually, in professional situations with Mac towers, I recommend using both TM (hourly/daily to a secondary internal drive) and SD! (daily or every few days to an external which can be swapped out off-site if desired). You can get back up and running quickly with minimal file-loss risk. This is gross overkill for most home users however.
--Fred
Mike Rosenberg - 03 Jun 2008 21:20 GMT > Well, (and please correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have direct > experience) I recently read that a fellow with a moderate-sized HD, say > 250GB, took 16 hours to do a TM restore. Without knowing any details whatsoever, it's really next to impossible to evaluate this. I did a test run with a backup containing about 125 GB total of current files (i.e. that's what needed to be restored) on a 500 GB SATA drive in a USB 2.0 enclosure, restoring to a 400 GB drive in a Quad 2.5 GHz G5, and it took around 3.5 hours.
> SD! or Disk Utility for that > matter could do the same restore in under an hour. Moving 250 GB of data? You're grossly underestimating.
> > But you cannot retrieve an accidently > > deleted file or a corrupted file from a clone if you discover after you > > last cloned that the file was deleted/corrupted. > > SD! could be programmed to do a 'Smart Update' (just changed files) > every hour if you wanted to do that. That's not the same as an archival backup by any means. Older versions of those changed files are _not_ retained, nor are files that have been deleted.
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Fred Moore - 04 Jun 2008 19:20 GMT > > Well, (and please correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have direct > > experience) I recently read that a fellow with a moderate-sized HD, say [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 500 GB SATA drive in a USB 2.0 enclosure, restoring to a 400 GB drive in > a Quad 2.5 GHz G5, and it took around 3.5 hours. Right, Mike, I realize my comments call for a certain amount of speculation. I'm just trying to get a handle on the relative performance of TM vs SD because there have been some comments that TM has a great deal of overhead which slows down a restore.
> > SD! or Disk Utility for that > > matter could do the same restore in under an hour. > > Moving 250 GB of data? You're grossly underestimating. Well, let's run a few approximate numbers (and I don't want to get in an argument about how many MB there are in a GB; these are back-of-the-envelope calculations; specs are from Apple and Wikipedia):
** From the Apple Store I checked the advertised speed of the SATA disks in a Mac Pro, that's Apple's current top-of-the-line tower. Their claim is 3GB/sec or 10,800GB/hr = 0.023hr = 1.4min for 250GB of data This seems grossly optimistic given the next item. Perhaps it's a max for a RAID.
** The advertised max transfer rate for an Hitachi Deskstar 1TB drive is 1GB/sec or 3,600GB/hr = 0.069hr = 4.2min This is exactly the kind of drive which one might put in a Mac Pro.
** But let's say reality (various overheads) is 1/2 the above 1/2GB/sec or 1,800GB/hr = 0.14hr = 8.3min
And let's compare to various other specs,
** eSATA is 300MB/sec or 1,080GB/hr = 0.23hr = 14min
** Let's say real eSATA is half that 150MB/sec or 540GB/hr = 0.46hr = 28min
** FW800 which _does_ get almost its spec is 98MB/sec or 353GB/hr = 0.71hr = 43min
** USB 2 spec is 60MB/sec or 216GB/hr = 1.18hr = 69min
** USB 2 reality is more like 30MB/sec or 108GB/hr = 2.31hr = 139min
** USB 1 spec (just for the hell of it) 1.5MB/sec or 5.4GB/hr = 46.3hr = 2778min
So according to these numbers, FW800 and faster _should_ be able to do a restore of 250GB of data in an hour or less. Anything more would seem to be system or app overhead. Even real USB 2 should restore your 125GB of data in just over an hour, but you say it took TM 3.5 hrs total. I'm not disputing your numbers. I'm just trying to get a handle on the what, where, and why of the seemingly large overhead with TM.
> > > But you cannot retrieve an accidently > > > deleted file or a corrupted file from a clone if you discover after you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That's not the same as an archival backup by any means. Older versions > of those changed files are _not_ retained, Yes, you're absolutely right. You'd handle this with multiple complete backup with SD. Easy retrieval of recent docs is certainly one of TM's strengths; quick restore of an operable system to get a crashed machine up and running again apparently isn't.
> nor are files that have been > deleted. Actually, you can set a pref in SD to _not_ remove deleted files from the backup, if that's what you want.
So tell me what you think of my analysis.
and
In article <1ihzdj6.bfd9tg1lghdpkN%nomail@please.invalid>, nomail@please.invalid (Johan W. Elzenga) wrote:
> My guess is that he used an USB 1.1 disk. Based on the numbers above USB 1 would have take almost 2 _days_. :/
> I recently bought a new > MacBook Pro and moved all the data from the old PowerBook by using a TM > backup, and I was up and running in about an hour. OK, that was 80 GB or > so, not 250 GB, but that would have meant 3 hours for 250 GB. Johan, your results consistent with Mike's numbers, which reinforces the question about TM overhead.
--Fred
Richard Maine - 04 Jun 2008 21:28 GMT > there have been some comments that TM has a great > deal of overhead which slows down a restore. That makes no sense. Who has made these comments about he alleged "overhead"? Basically, no, TM has no overhead in the storage system, so that nonexistant overhead couldn't very well slow down a restore. If you have a slow restore, then it must be for some other reason. Trying to translate specs for disk transfer rate into observable performance in real tasks is a non-trivial matter. There are lots of issues that can come into play there. I don't think I'll even try to list them. But TM overhead isn't one of them, because there isn't any. TM uses a plain old HFS+ storage system. The only thing the least bit unusual about it is the symlinks to directories, which doesn't constitute overhead and wouldn't affect restores.
 Signature Richard Maine | Good judgement comes from experience; email: last name at domain . net | experience comes from bad judgement. domain: summertriangle | -- Mark Twain
David Empson - 05 Jun 2008 08:57 GMT > > > Well, (and please correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have direct > > > experience) I recently read that a fellow with a moderate-sized HD, say [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > This seems grossly optimistic given the next item. Perhaps it's a max > for a RAID. That should be 3 Gigabits per second for SATA-2, not 3 GigaBYTES per second. Actual maximum speed after protocol overhead is 300 MB/sec, so these numbers are out by a factor of ten.
The original SATA was 1.5 Gbps or 150 MB/s (which was an improvement over ATA-133, at 133 MB/s).
> ** The advertised max transfer rate for an Hitachi Deskstar 1TB drive is > 1GB/sec or 3,600GB/hr = 0.069hr = 4.2min > This is exactly the kind of drive which one might put in a Mac Pro. That number also seems to be out by a significant factor. Real hard drives have best transfer rates in the order of 100 MB/s. It could only achieve 1 GB/s if reading out of a RAM cache on the drive, and no hard drive interface is fast enough to deliver that much throughput.
> ** But let's say reality (various overheads) is 1/2 the above > 1/2GB/sec or 1,800GB/hr = 0.14hr = 8.3min [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ** Let's say real eSATA is half that > 150MB/sec or 540GB/hr = 0.46hr = 28min I don't have any direct experience with eSATA, but it should be able to achieve the same speeds as SATA. The drive is typically the limit, not the interface. For a striped multi-drive RAID, the interface might be a limit.
> ** FW800 which _does_ get almost its spec is > 98MB/sec or 353GB/hr = 0.71hr = 43min For a single drive, the drive is usually the limiting factor with FW800. My Seagate Barracuda (7200 rpm 3.5") 500 GB drive achieves a best throughput in the order of 60 MB/s on FW800. (It drops to 40 MB/s for FW400, 30 MB/s for USB 2.0.)
> ** USB 2 spec is > 60MB/sec or 216GB/hr = 1.18hr = 69min > > ** USB 2 reality is more like > 30MB/sec or 108GB/hr = 2.31hr = 139min Agreed. I've never seen USB 2.0 transfer data faster than 30 MB/s. PowerPC Macs tend to be much slower than Intel ones. PowerBook G4s I've tried never got faster than 20 MB/s on USB 2.0.
> ** USB 1 spec (just for the hell of it) > 1.5MB/sec or 5.4GB/hr = 46.3hr = 2778min And you have to halve that speed to get a realistic maximum transfer rate.
> So according to these numbers, FW800 and faster _should_ be able to do a > restore of 250GB of data in an hour or less. Anything more would seem to > be system or app overhead. Even real USB 2 should restore your 125GB of > data in just over an hour, but you say it took TM 3.5 hrs total. I'm not > disputing your numbers. I'm just trying to get a handle on the what, > where, and why of the seemingly large overhead with TM. The above numbers don't take into account the speed of the other drive: if restoring to a laptop (2.5") drive, don't expect transfer rates to exceed about 30 MB/s, which is what the 160 GB drive in my MacBook Pro can manage.
The most significant delaying factor is overhead when dealing with small files.
If you are copying large files, the actual transfer rate can be very close to the theoretical limit of the drive and/or bus. Most of the time is spent actually shunting vast amounts of data from one drive to the other.
If you are copying a lot of small files, the transfer rate drops dramatically. For each file copied, the system has to update the directory information (metadata). This isn't written to the disk constantly, but it has to be updated immediately in memory, and is flushed to disk reasonably often.
In addition, the system typically only requests a small amount of data to be read from the source drive, and written to the destination drive, because it copies one file at a time. This may involve seeking and rotational latency. The source drive's cache won't help much when doing lots of small read requests, unless the files are stored sequentially (no fragmentation and the files are being copied in the same order they were originally written) and the drive is smart enough to read ahead.
The protocol overhead for all these small I/O requests is also significant. Rather than sending one request to the drive to transfer several megabytes, the computer is sending hundreds of requests, each asking for a few kilobytes. Each of these requests has to be generated by the CPU, sent over the interface to the drive, and processed by the drive controller.
I've observed this pattern with all backup methods. If I'm backing up my computer, most of it goes quite slowly, until it hits my iTunes library: it is then copying about 4 MB per file, and this goes substantially faster than copying the dozens of small files that make up typical applications or system packages. Maximum speed is achieved while backing up my VMware Fusion disk image (several gigabytes in a single file).
I did a full system backup of my MacBook Pro with SuperDuper! just before installing 10.5.3. It backed up about 120 GB via Firewire 800 in somewhat more than two hours. I would expect a restore to go a little faster, because the backup drive has all the data stored sequentially (no fragmentation). I don't have a comparitive figure for Time Machine, as I haven't used it to do a full backup of the computer (only my data files).
Time Machine does have some additional overhead when doing a backup, because it has to maintain the hard links and some additional metadata (extended attributes) for each file. When restoring, some of this metadata has to be removed, so I'd expect a greater degree of overhead than when doing a restore from a SD clone.
In addition, the TM backup will be heavily fragmented due to recently modified files being grouped together at the tail end of the backup, with earlier unmodified files being scattered all over the place. This means a lot more seeking is required to read all the files that make up a single "unified" backup. I expect this would significantly slow down restoring from TM compared to a SD backup.
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Fred Moore - 05 Jun 2008 18:02 GMT > > 3GB/sec or 10,800GB/hr = 0.023hr = 1.4min for 250GB of data > > This seems grossly optimistic given the next item. Perhaps it's a max [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > second. Actual maximum speed after protocol overhead is 300 MB/sec, so > these numbers are out by a factor of ten. DAMN! Thank you, David. You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! Despite my best efforts, I'm always misreading b and B in these specs. I very much appreciate your correcting me.
> The original SATA was 1.5 Gbps or 150 MB/s (which was an improvement > over ATA-133, at 133 MB/s). [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > ** But let's say reality (various overheads) is 1/2 the above > > 1/2GB/sec or 1,800GB/hr = 0.14hr = 8.3min And right again. The corrected numbers (dividing by 8) should be 3G*bits*/sec or 1,350G*Bytes*/hr = 0.18hr = 11min 1G*bits*/sec or 450G*Bytes*/hr = 0.56hr = 33min 1/2G*bits*/sec or 225G*Bytes*/hr = 1.1hr = 67min
I think the rest of the numbers (below) are correct.
> > And let's compare to various other specs, > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > throughput in the order of 60 MB/s on FW800. (It drops to 40 MB/s for > FW400, 30 MB/s for USB 2.0.) So that's about 60% of spec for FW800 and about 80% for FW400. IIRC I've been getting 80% for FW800 and 90% for FW400, but I don't have recent hard numbers to back that up. Maybe it's the reversed Coriolis Effect since you're in eNZed. ;)
> > ** USB 2 spec is > > 60MB/sec or 216GB/hr = 1.18hr = 69min [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > And you have to halve that speed to get a realistic maximum transfer > rate. Right again. I left that out since 46 hrs for a restore was absurd enough.
> > So according to these numbers, FW800 and faster _should_ be able to do a > > restore of 250GB of data in an hour or less. Anything more would seem to [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > a single "unified" backup. I expect this would significantly slow down > restoring from TM compared to a SD backup. Thanks, David, for taking the time to put together such a cogent and thorough elucidation of this issue. And thanks again for catching my bit/byte blunder. Help yourself to some of that exquisite New Zealand boysenberry ice cream and send me the bill. ;)
--Fred
Johan W. Elzenga - 03 Jun 2008 21:41 GMT > > And I would do the exact opposite. You can boot from the install DVD and > > then restore an entire disk from a Time Mchine backup. That is almost as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > experience) I recently read that a fellow with a moderate-sized HD, say > 250GB, took 16 hours to do a TM restore. My guess is that he used an USB 1.1 disk. I recently bought a new MacBook Pro and moved all the data from the old PowerBook by using a TM backup, and I was up and running in about an hour. OK, that was 80 GB or so, not 250 GB, but that would have meant 3 hours for 250 GB.
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AES - 03 Jun 2008 23:26 GMT In article <arkayREMOVE-DC0001.08503603062008@news.houston.sbcglobal.net>,
> > Is there any reason to prefer Time Machine over SuperDuper! and its > > bootable backups? No -- but only because they do totally _different_ things, and it depends on which you want -- or maybe you want both.
SuperDuper! does _backups_, meaning essentially instantaneous snapshots of your Mac HD. If you do an initial SD backup on Monday, with File X on your Mac, File X is now in that SD backup as well as on your Mac.
On Tuesday, without being aware of it or realizing it, you accidently delete File X, so it's gone from your Mac.
On Wednesday you again do an SD backup (commonly called an "incremental backup"), which modifies the previous SD backup to be exactly like your Mac is _on Wednesday_ when you do the new backup. That's how SD works.
On Thursday, you realize you can't find File X on your Mac. You look for it on the SD backup; it isn't there either. It's gone.
Time Machine does _archiving_. In the same example as above it takes an initial full snapshot of your Mac on Monday; File X is in that snapshot.
On Wednesday it takes another snapshot of your Mac as it is on Wednesday -- with no FIle X -- but to minimize space requirements it basically just records the _changes_ (additions and deletions) from Monday, keeping the full Monday snapshot. The backup file gets a bit bigger, but not too much.
On Thursday you realize File X is gone from your Mac. You can go back through the Wednesday snapshot and not find it, but if you go back to the Monday snapshot, you'll find it.
The actual functioning is a bit more complex, but that's how it basically works. It makes frequent snapshots as you work; thins out the older snapshots as more time passes; but provides you in essence with an archive where you can, in fact, travel back in time to any earlier date, and see what was on your Mac at that earlier date.
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