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Mac Forum / Applications / Mac Applications / November 2007iChat Fraud
Well fraud is kinda overblown, but it's certainly false "advertising". For years I've been watching Jobs do the song and dance about the glory and splendor of iChat on the Mac. A lot of Windows people oo and ah about that part of the demo presentations. There's some great new features involved with my newest installation of Leopard. But it apparently *can't* work the way they've presented it. Where is all the endless echoing of audio coming through the speaker system? Sitting at my dsk I say "Hola, compadre" and a second later I hear it jangling through their speaker and back out mine and back in theirs. We scurry to ensure no feedback loop but still it's kinda lame with all that echo and delay. What it *really* looks like in my world is two geeks with head-sets on trying to eliminate the endless noise. What the hell does Apple do during those faked-up presentations to make it look like iChat works without feedback? Is everybody using a tiny unobtrusive bluetooth headset?  SignatureThank you and have a nice day. > Well fraud is kinda overblown, but it's certainly false "advertising". > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > it look like iChat works without feedback? Is everybody using a tiny > unobtrusive bluetooth headset? Simple -- don't chat between two machines inches apart. SignatureSteve W. Jackson Montgomery, Alabama > Simple -- don't chat between two machines inches apart. Honestly; you don't get it? The cities apart. SignatureThank you and have a nice day. >Simple -- don't chat between two machines inches apart. Everything is inches apart. The number of inches is variable. > Well fraud is kinda overblown, but it's certainly false "advertising". > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > it look like iChat works without feedback? Is everybody using a tiny > unobtrusive bluetooth headset? I can't say what Apple is doing, but I know that iChat is a critical part of my wife's work telecommuting cross-country. I've been nearby for some of those chats; the issues you're describing a very rare and minimal when they do occur, at least here. Maybe it is something about the specific hardware. I believe the whole company uses iSights. The external kind. > > Well fraud is kinda overblown, but it's certainly false "advertising". > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Maybe it is something about the specific hardware. I believe the whole > company uses iSights. The external kind. The only time I've heard echos from either built-in or external iSights is when a family member has their speaker volume turned way too high. SignatureNote: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter. JR > Well fraud is kinda overblown, but it's certainly false "advertising". > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > it look like iChat works without feedback? Is everybody using a tiny > unobtrusive bluetooth headset? Interesting. I chat regularly with a couple family members in different states, and we rarely hear any echos. If we do, either of us just turns down the volume a bit and the problem is solved. But, again, that's a very rare occasion. SignatureNote: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter. JR > Interesting. I chat regularly with a couple family members in different > states, and we rarely hear any echos. If we do, either of us just turns > down the volume a bit and the problem is solved. But, again, that's a > very rare occasion. Presumably, headphones or a headset would help as well, if it gets that bad. > But it apparently *can't* work the way they've presented it. Where is > all the endless echoing of audio coming through the speaker system? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > it look like iChat works without feedback? Is everybody using a tiny > unobtrusive bluetooth headset? I use it with my external iSight with no echo, feedback, or any other audio problems. >> But it apparently *can't* work the way they've presented it. Where is >> all the endless echoing of audio coming through the speaker system? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I use it with my external iSight with no echo, feedback, or any other > audio problems. I don't understand how it is that the microphone picks up the person's voic, but magically does not pick up the sound of their speaker. SignatureThank you and have a nice day. > I don't understand how it is that the microphone picks up the person's voic, > but magically does not pick up the sound of their speaker. I would guess that the mic picks it all up, but somewhere inside, the system knows what was coming out of the speaker and cancels that part of the mic input. Or maybe it isn't that clever and is just appropriately directional. I don't have a mic (and so have never played with audio chat, much less video) to experiment with. -j SignatureJeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ I rarely read top-posted, over-quoting or HTML postings. http://improve-usenet.org/ > >> But it apparently *can't* work the way they've presented it. Where is > >> all the endless echoing of audio coming through the speaker system? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I don't understand how it is that the microphone picks up the person's > voic, but magically does not pick up the sound of their speaker. The most likely methods are: 1. Echo cancellation. Filtering out the audio received by the microphone which matches the speaker output, allowing for some delay and distortion. 2. Muting. Stop recording while the speaker is outputting anything, or cut off sound from the other end while you are talking. I think it is more likely that iChat is using echo cancellation, since it is possible to have two people talking at the same time without cutting off effects. The echo feedback loop may only happen when there is a significant delay in the audio path, either on the input or output side, or significant distortion between the speaker and microphone, so it isn't recognised as an echo. Distortion could be due to the speaker being too loud for the microphone. SignatureDavid Empson dempson@actrix.gen.nz > The echo feedback loop may only happen when there is a significant delay > in the audio path, either on the input or output side, or significant > distortion between the speaker and microphone, so it isn't recognised as > an echo. Distortion could be due to the speaker being too loud for the > microphone. This suggests to me that older Macs, with less speedy processors, are more likely to have longer signal delays, and therefore more echo. I do remember that iChat 1.0 was close to unusable on my G4/400 the few times I tried it on that box. Both the image and the sound were problematic, as I recall. Given David's observation that echos may be a result of delays at either end, it would appear you need a fast Mac at both ends. For those that are having problems with iChat and echos - what Macs are you running at each end? > I don't understand how it is that the microphone picks up the person's > voic, but magically does not pick up the sound of their speaker. Sorry to intrude late in a thread but maybe I can answer this. Some microphones are built to be "sound-cancelling". Sound from the user's voice is presumed to be close to the mic and therefore impinges on the transducing membrane on one side only. Sound from, say, a speaker or anything else much more remote than the user's mouth (or at right angles to it), impinges on both sides of the membrane and thus tends to cancel itself out. The technology's not perfect but it's better than nothing. >> I don't understand how it is that the microphone picks up the person's >> voic, but magically does not pick up the sound of their speaker. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > The technology's not perfect but it's better than nothing. In my tests we're both using an iMac with the built-in mic. I assume that's what the people here who express no significant difficulties are doing, and I as well. so I'm still unsure why our system sucks, but others are fine. When I asked about this a year ago, there seemed to be a number of people who were in my boat. Apparently they all got out somewhere along the line. SignatureThank you and have a nice day. > Well fraud is kinda overblown, but it's certainly false "advertising". > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > it look like iChat works without feedback? Is everybody using a tiny > unobtrusive bluetooth headset? Just did a video iChat with my Brother this evening. No echo. So while you may be having problems, it is not a universal problem. And in my case having audio and video chats with my Mom, my Brother, and my Wife (when away on business trips), iChat has been very easy to use, just like Steve's demos. Bob Harris >> Well fraud is kinda overblown, but it's certainly false "advertising". >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Brother, and my Wife (when away on business trips), iChat has been > very easy to use, just like Steve's demos. Okay then. I'll try it some more, but I've experienced it three times over as many years with three different users. SignatureThank you and have a nice day. |
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