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Mac Forum / Applications / Mac Applications / September 2007Once again: Thumb drives, PCs, and Macs?
All of us have probably had the experience of attending meetings or symposia and sitting impatiently in the audience while one or another speaker futzes around getting their laptop connected to the projector, or getting the projector to recognize their computer. (Had exactly this experience once again myself just last evening.) A good idea I've encountered at several meetings recently is a USB cable or extension cord at the podium or speakers' table, connected to a single master computer that drives the projector. Each speaker, instead of trying to get their personal computer to talk to a VGA cable, simply plugs their thumb drive/flash drive into the end of this USB extension cable, either before the session starts in order to preload their presentation into the master computer, or when they come to the podium so it becomes immediately accessible to the master computer and projector. The hassle now is: none of the master computers I've encountered recently have been willing to recognize or read a Mac-written flash drive -- **even when the volume on the flash drive was created in the "MS-DOS" format available in Disk Utility on OS X**. So the question is: Is there software that's reasonably available for Windows machines (either in Windows itself, or as readily available third-party software) that lets Windows machines read Mac-written flash drives -- flash drives formatted in the standard Mac OS X formats? If there is, I'm in a position to hassle at least some organizations to demand that this capability be available on their own AV equipment, and on any AV equipment that they rent in hotel or conference center meeting rooms -- and I'll be glad to do so. > All of us have probably had the experience of attending meetings or > symposia and sitting impatiently in the audience while one or another [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > or extension cord at the podium or speakers' table, connected to a > single master computer that drives the projector. ... My usual solution in such circumstances is connecting my MacBook Pro to the projector (works first time mostly) and then connecting USB flash drives to it. Never let me down. Marc  SignatureSwitzerland/Europe <http://www.heusser.com> remove CHEERS and from MERCIAL to get valid e-mail In article <marc.heusser-CF46E5.18434826092007@news.unizh.ch>, Marc Heusser <marc.heusser@cheersheusser.commercialspammers.invalid> wrote: > My usual solution in such circumstances is connecting my MacBook Pro to > the projector (works first time mostly) and then connecting USB flash > drives to it. Never let me down. That's quite true -- I never had a bit of trouble connecting my previous iBook (pure built-in video mirroring, no other choice) to any VGA projector. But when you've got only a small crowded podium and a typical technical meeting schedule -- eight 15 minute talks in two hours, flat, 12 minutes for presentation, 3 for questions, and a necessarily strict chairman -- having each successive speaker futzing around getting the previous speaker's laptop disconnected and theirs connected is just not a realistic way to run things. > In article <marc.heusser-CF46E5.18434826092007@news.unizh.ch>, > Marc Heusser <marc.heusser@cheersheusser.commercialspammers.invalid> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > speaker's laptop disconnected and theirs connected is just not a > realistic way to run things. I meant: connect only the Mac, and have all people bring their presentations on a USB stick. I've been through exactly the above situation, and this works. :-) Marc SignatureSwitzerland/Europe <http://www.heusser.com> remove CHEERS and from MERCIAL to get valid e-mail In article <marc.heusser-138AD4.23481326092007@news.unizh.ch>, Marc Heusser <marc.heusser@cheersheusser.commercialspammers.invalid> wrote: > I meant: connect only the Mac, and have all people bring their > presentations on a USB stick. I've been through exactly the above > situation, and this works. :-) > > Marc Yes, Marc, that would be extremely nice. The problem is that in the U.S. the vast majority of commercial organizations (and many other organizations, including even the administrative parts of universities and scientific societies) are totally Windows dominated; and many scientists in industrial labs are more or less compelled to use Windows machines also, because their company has Windows-centered speciality software. Therefore, the AV (audio-visual) equipment that's provided in most conference centers, hotel meeting rooms, and so on, is totally Windows-dominated also; and it can be a struggle to be allowed to use a Mac as the primary computer in a meeting. Noting your address, I'll add that any of us here are applauding the recent EU re-decision against Microsoft (even though I'm not fully sure -- die Schweiz is or is not in the EU?) > The problem is that in the U.S. the vast majority of commercial > organizations (and many other organizations, including even the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Windows-dominated also; and it can be a struggle to be allowed to use a > Mac as the primary computer in a meeting. I know, been there too :-) > Noting your address, I'll add that any of us here are applauding the > recent EU re-decision against Microsoft (even though I'm not fully sure > -- die Schweiz is or is not in the EU?) We are not (yet?) part of the EU, but have many contracts that economically bind us to the EU (or sometimes we just follow EU legislation with our own laws). 2/3 of our exports go to the EU; 4/5 of our imports come from the EU; over half of the investments from outside are from the EU, 40% of our investments are in the EU. Some 5% of the Swiss live in the EU, some 10% of our inhabitants are EU citizens. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area So while we are not full member of the EU, we are tightly integrated into the EU. Marc SignatureSwitzerland/Europe <http://www.heusser.com> remove CHEERS and from MERCIAL to get valid e-mail > But when you've got only a small crowded podium and a typical technical > meeting schedule -- eight 15 minute talks in two hours, flat, 12 minutes > for presentation, 3 for questions, and a necessarily strict chairman -- > having each successive speaker futzing around getting the previous > speaker's laptop disconnected and theirs connected is just not a > realistic way to run things. AES- Where I used to work, one group had a similar schedule of presentations. They handled it by requiring presentations to be delivered to the secretary in advance (plus the required number of copies of the hand-outs). Presentations were pre-loaded and any compatibility issues were handled before the meeting started. USB Flash drives were the norm, but CDs could be accommodated. You do need a computer-literate person to be the secretary. Fred > AES- > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Fred Yes, this is one way to handle it, and some professional meetings that I've been involved in (both as a participant, and as an officer of the society holding the meeting) have attempted to address the problem in something like this fashion. But note the implications. Suppose the meeting (a big multi-session professional meeting at a conference center) starts at 8:00 am, and you're flying in to arrive at your hotel in the conference city around midnight the evening before your 8:15 am talk. This means that to do said pre-loading you don't just get up at 7:00 am (4:00 am body time if your flight was West to East Coast) to get to the meeting venue, get registered, and get to your session. Rather you get up at 3:00 am to be sure you can also get to the Speaker Check-in room (two floors up and down a long hallway in the massive conference center) -- which Speaker Check-In room incidentally has to be staffed all day long, from say 6:30 am onward; expensive! -- with time to do the pre-loading, plus a safety factor. Providing for pre-loading over the web in advance might seem one way around this. But if you're talking about a typical scientific meeting, with maybe 8 parallel sessions over three full days -- 80 to 100 individual 2 hour sessions, 500 to 600 papers -- just handling this is a massive (and error-prone) exercise in setting up and keeping straight all the papers. Believe me: I've been there, done all of the above, seen all the hassles and expense involved. Bottom line #1: The humans are to be inconvenienced to meet the computer limitations. Second bottom line: Why are there these limitations? In general Macs seem to be able to read PC drives. Windows systems -- the massively deployed, massively profitable, ubiquitously used OS prepared by all those totally brilliant programmers that Microsoft asserts fill their buildings up there in Seattle -- can't read Mac-written drives. Wonder why this is? > Presentations were pre-loaded and any compatibility issues were handled > before the meeting started. USB Flash drives were the norm, but CDs > could be accommodated. You do need a computer-literate person to be the Sometimes this doesn't work out so well, because of software incompatibilities with the slides. Fonts, or more subtly, colors, don't come out right on the other OS platform. The speaker gets up there and discovers that their slides are useless, because half the information is now invisible or confused due to a color incompatability. The computer-literate "secretary" handling the setup of the materials might not even notice anything is wrong, even if they preview the slideshow, because they don't know what the slide was designed to show. > So the question is: Is there software that's reasonably available for > Windows machines (either in Windows itself, or as readily available > third-party software) that lets Windows machines read Mac-written flash > drives -- flash drives formatted in the standard Mac OS X formats? <http://www.mediafour.com/products/macdrive/> > > So the question is: Is there software that's reasonably available for > > Windows machines (either in Windows itself, or as readily available > > third-party software) that lets Windows machines read Mac-written flash > > drives -- flash drives formatted in the standard Mac OS X formats? > > <http://www.mediafour.com/products/macdrive/> Thanks. > The hassle now is: none of the master computers I've encountered > recently have been willing to recognize or read a Mac-written flash > drive -- **even when the volume on the flash drive was created in the > "MS-DOS" format available in Disk Utility on OS X**. I have _never_ had a problem with a USB device formatted 'MS-DOS' from Disk Utilities. In fact, I use my Macs to format USB devices for use with Windows machines because WinXP won't format volumes larger than 32 GB as FAT32 volumes. I'm looking at a WD Passport (60 GB) a LaCie (120 GB) and another WD Passport (120 GB) on my desk right now which were formatted by Macs and two of which are attached to Windows machines and are quite visible to them. Did you change the partition info? They're supposed to be partitioned using the MBR scheme. Also, in the name of security, Windows sometimes locks off the ability to mount USB volumes. Have you checked in Administrative Tools/Computer Management/Disk Management and assign a drive letter to the volume and mount it. Signatureemail to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com. >I have _never_ had a problem with a USB device formatted 'MS-DOS' from Disk >Utilities. In fact, I use my Macs to format USB devices for use with Windows [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >you change the partition info? They're supposed to be partitioned using the >MBR scheme. I use my iPod for this now, but your presentation computer needs to turn off the auto-load of iTunes. >Also, in the name of security, Windows sometimes locks off the ability to >mount USB volumes. Have you checked in Administrative Tools/Computer >Management/Disk Management and assign a drive letter to the volume and mount >it. The last time I used my flash drive, it created a "Safely Remove Hardware" icon that shows up next to the Windows clock when Windows sees a removable drive. I can either dismount my iPod using this or using iTunes. AES: > The hassle now is: none of the master computers I've encountered > recently have been willing to recognize or read a Mac-written flash > drive -- **even when the volume on the flash drive was created in the > "MS-DOS" format available in Disk Utility on OS X**. The flash drive came out of the box readable & writable by Mac OS and Windows. Don't reformat. If you've already messed it up, reformat as FAT32 on a Windows machine and then stop messing with it. Davoud Signatureusenet *at* davidillig dawt com > AES: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Windows. Don't reformat. If you've already messed it up, reformat as > FAT32 on a Windows machine and then stop messing with it. I think the above is exactly the point. If I'm interpreting my own experience correctly, once you do any reformatting -- meaning specifically an Erase -- on a flash drive (the drive itself, not a volume on it), you somehow destroy whatever is needed for the drive itself to be Windows readable -- **and you can't get Windows-readability back using Disk Utility** . At least, my experience is that, using Erase, you can then create a FAT _volume_ on the reformatted device -- but you can't convert the device itself back to being a Windows-readable. Maybe Partition can do this ??? -- haven't had opportunity to try this. >I think the above is exactly the point. If I'm interpreting my own >experience correctly, once you do any reformatting -- meaning >specifically an Erase -- on a flash drive (the drive itself, not a >volume on it), you somehow destroy whatever is needed for the drive >itself to be Windows readable -- **and you can't get Windows-readability >back using Disk Utility** . Interesting. Every once in a while, my memory card stopped working correctly, and the only solution was to have the camera format it. > I think the above is exactly the point. If I'm interpreting my own > experience correctly, once you do any reformatting -- meaning > specifically an Erase -- on a flash drive (the drive itself, not a > volume on it), you somehow destroy whatever is needed for the drive > itself to be Windows readable -- **and you can't get Windows-readability > back using Disk Utility** . That is emphatically NOT my experience. I have reformatted Flash drives on a Mac on many occasions and experienced no difficulty whatsoever in using them in any Windows computer, provided I format them for PC. SignaturePhotography, kink, polyamory, shareware, and more: all at http://www.xeromag.com/franklin.html > If I'm interpreting my own experience correctly, once you do any > reformatting -- meaning specifically an Erase -- on a flash drive (the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Maybe Partition can do this ??? -- haven't had opportunity to try this. It is possible that if you erase an flash drive containing a single partition, Disk Utility will default to either the Mac OS Extended file system (which will obviously cause problems on Windows) or using an Apple Partition Map partition scheme with whichever file system you choose (even FAT32). To be certain, use the Partition tab, click the Options button and make sure it has "Master Boot Record" selected before you erase the drive. SignatureDavid Empson dempson@actrix.gen.nz > It is possible that if you erase an flash drive containing a single > partition, Disk Utility will default to either the Mac OS Extended file > system (which will obviously cause problems on Windows) Seems like that's what happens. But _why_ should it "obviously cause problems on Windows"? If Windows is such a brilliantly programmed, immensely widely used, immensely profitable OS, why can't it serve the needs **of Microsoft's own customers** by building into Windows systems the trivially difficult capability to read USB flash drives from other, less widely used but still very important systems? Could not providing this capability be a _deliberate_ decision on Microsoft's part? [Maybe related to the very recent higher court reaffirmation of a European Union decision fining Microsoft --what was it, something like $600 million? -- for deliberately anti-competitive behavior?] > > It is possible that if you erase an flash drive containing a single > > partition, Disk Utility will default to either the Mac OS Extended file > > system (which will obviously cause problems on Windows) > > Seems like that's what happens. But _why_ should it "obviously cause > problems on Windows"? Because Windows doesn't support the HFS and HFS+ file systems ("Mac OS Standard" or "Mac OS Extended"), nor Apple's partitioning scheme, unless you buy and install third party software (MacDrive). > If Windows is such a brilliantly programmed, immensely widely used, > immensely profitable OS, why can't it serve the needs **of Microsoft's > own customers** by building into Windows systems the trivially difficult > capability to read USB flash drives from other, less widely used but > still very important systems? Because Microsoft Windows is 95% of the market, so why should they bother dealing with a tiny minority when that tiny minority is already known to "toe the line" by supporting FAT16 and FAT32 for exchanging files with Windows? Supporting HFS/HFS+ and APM would not be "trivially difficult". It requires implementing another entire file system, which is likely to require a fair amount of development and testing, and has to be done right the first time or you risk destroying your customers' data. At least Apple has made a reasonably good effort of documenting HFS and HFS+, unlike Microsoft with NTFS. Microsoft obviously don't think this development effort is worthwhile. Adding support for HFS/HFS+ would make it easier for Mac users to remain on their own platform rather than applying more pressure to have them switch to running Windows. > Could not providing this capability be a _deliberate_ decision on > Microsoft's part? [Maybe related to the very recent higher court > reaffirmation of a European Union decision fining Microsoft --what was > it, something like $600 million? -- for deliberately anti-competitive > behavior?] Microsoft's attitude is generally to force everyone to do things their way, and make it as difficult as possible for other platforms to colloborate with Windows, except in limited ways. An odd exception is with their servers, which have supported Mac clients for a long time (AFP over TCP). I suppose this is just an attempt to own the entire server market too. This results in ongoing pressure to buy Microsoft products in order to comply with their de-facto and undocumented "standards". Thank goodness for open standards which Microsoft has to comply with, though they keep trying to push in Windows-only aspects such as ActiveX. USB is one example where Microsoft doesn't appear to have much say in things. The only Windows-centric aspects of USB that I know of are with third party developers not providing support for other platforms. (Phew, glad to get that lot off my chest. Further discussion on this sub-thread redirected to comp.sys.mac.advocacy.) SignatureDavid Empson dempson@actrix.gen.nz > AES: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Windows. Don't reformat. If you've already messed it up, reformat as > FAT32 on a Windows machine and then stop messing with it. I have never reformat a USB drive - deleted all files, yes but reformat - no. And I have never a a problem going back and forth between Windows and Mac system except for one thumb drive that had the U3 security software on it. That totally hosed the thumb drive so I couldn't do anything with it. > > AES: > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Mac system except for one thumb drive that had the U3 security software on > it. That totally hosed the thumb drive so I couldn't do anything with it. Me too. For me, I just leave my flash drives in the format they come out of the box and I have never had a problem reading/writing data on Windows and Macs with them. |
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