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Mac Forum / Applications / Mac Applications / November 2006Unison -- multiple servers active at same time?
I just installed Unison and have been playing with it. Nice interface, but some features I would like to see don't appear to be here. The simplest one is this: in my old MT-Newswatcher I can open several news servers at the same time. In Unison, it seems one has to keep switching back and forth (depending on where the group resides obviously). Is there a way to do this automatically, so I don't have to keep switching back and forth when reading news? Also, assume the default Groups can all be trashed (like Disney and Pets).  SignatureRobertB > I just installed Unison and have been playing with it. Nice interface, > but some features I would like to see don't appear to be here. The [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Also, assume the default Groups can all be trashed (like Disney and Pets). One server at a time. Best is Hogwasher that will *combine* servers. That is, you can have one server, say your ISP, to pull what it can and then another, say Giganews, to fill what's not there, so that it all appears together. Yeah, trash the groups. SignatureTim lance_1012@hotmail.com > One server at a time. Best is Hogwasher that will *combine* servers. That is, > you can have one server, say your ISP, to pull what it can and then another, > say Giganews, to fill what's not there, so that it all appears together. An additional advantage if you are a cheapskate (like me) is that you can use several free servers simultaneously and Hogwasher will take what's available from which. I use the excellent Individual.net for the core text groups which they do and then I have added to that free servers for any other groups. SignaturePatrick Brighton, UK <http://www.patrickjames.me.uk> >> One server at a time. Best is Hogwasher that will *combine* servers. That is, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I use the excellent Individual.net for the core text groups which they > do and then I have added to that free servers for any other groups. Didn't know there were free servers for news. I use my ISP's news server, but it's often slow. SignatureRobertB > Didn't know there were free servers for news. I use my ISP's news > server, but it's often slow. Well I live in the UK (though it won't make any difference I guess). The first new server I'll suggest is not free but costs only 10 Euros per annum (that's 13 US dollars). It only does text groups but I find it to be absolutely excellent. <http://news.individual.net/> Free servers to have a look at which are text only: <http://news.motzarella.org/en/index.php> <http://news.datemas.de/> <http://usenet.ath.cx/> This one is free and carries binaries: <http://www.news.greatnowhere.com/> All of them require registration. SignaturePatrick Brighton, UK <http://www.patrickjames.me.uk> >> I just installed Unison and have been playing with it. Nice interface, >> but some features I would like to see don't appear to be here. The [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > then another, say Giganews, to fill what's not there, so that it all > appears together. Hmppph. Thanks. Still evaluating. > Yeah, trash the groups. Righto. SignatureRobertB > I just installed Unison and have been playing with it. Nice interface, > but some features I would like to see don't appear to be here. The [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Also, assume the default Groups can all be trashed (like Disney and Pets). I have trashed all the default groups, retaining one called 'Subscribed'. Unison seems to need at least one group. I rarely use the Groups window though and don't even have it open, jumping straight in to the equivalent to the three pane view. This shows all the subscribed groups regardless of server. The downside is that only the current server shows unfetched headers. Hope this is clear/ SignatureCheers, Steve The reply-to email address is a spam trap. Email steve 'at' shodgson 'dot' org 'dot' uk >> I just installed Unison and have been playing with it. Nice interface, >> but some features I would like to see don't appear to be here. The [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Hope this is clear/ Not sure I follow. Which is the "three-pane view". You mean the column on the far left with "Discussions / Files / Others?" Also, Unison doesn't give you the total number of messages in a thread, which Newswatcher does. All in all, Newswatcher, although clunky in a lot of ways, is a lot more configurable. Unison is fast though. However, I'm running it on a brand new core2duo on which everything is fast. SignatureRobertB > Unison is fast though. I *strongly* disagree. Unison is the slowest reader I have ever used. I have a throttled server connection, and Unison does some kind of busy wait that sucks up 100% of my CPU(s) for each set of headers it downloads, with the net result being a lot of wasted cycles and a maximum of around 1000 headers/minute. Contrast that with MT-Newswatcher, given the same limited bandwidth, which can process easily 10x that amount. Given that Unison doesn't handle crossposts and has limited filtering, I've found Unison to be unusable. If I had been able to discover all that before I registered, I never would have. SignatureMy personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, 4ax.com, buzzardnews.com, googlegroups.com, heapnode.com, localhost, x-privat.org >> Unison is fast though. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and has limited filtering, I've found Unison to be unusable. If I had > been able to discover all that before I registered, I never would have. I like Unison but it really *needs* broadband to work well. On limited bandwidth or dial-up something like Hogwasher is a much better choice. SignatureCheers, Steve The reply-to email address is a spam trap. Email steve 'at' shodgson 'dot' org 'dot' uk > I like Unison but it really *needs* broadband to work well. On limited > bandwidth or dial-up something like Hogwasher is a much better choice. That makes absolutely no sense. I *do* have broadband, but it just happens that my Usenet access is throttled per connection. There is no good reason for Unison to suck 100% CPU for 10x longer than MT-Newswatcher sucks up 10%. What Unison *needs* is a developer that actually reads Usenet. The things it fails at are so rookie that it being pretty ultimately doesn't even matter. SignatureMy personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, 4ax.com, buzzardnews.com, googlegroups.com, heapnode.com, localhost, x-privat.org >> I like Unison but it really *needs* broadband to work well. On limited >> bandwidth or dial-up something like Hogwasher is a much better choice. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > actually reads Usenet. The things it fails at are so rookie that it > being pretty ultimately doesn't even matter. I find that Unison sits at about 1% - 2% in Menu Meters and only increases to about 10% when typing a message. SignatureCheers, Steve The reply-to email address is a spam trap. Email steve 'at' shodgson 'dot' org 'dot' uk > I find that Unison sits at about 1% - 2% in Menu Meters and only > increases to about 10% when typing a message. I have to assume you're purposely being dense. I'm not talking about idle usage. I'm talking specifically about what I see when I download headers. Unison gets about 1k/minute and sucks up 100% CPU doing so, while MT-Newswatcher gets about 10k/minute and uses 10% CPU doing so. Of note is that when I tried a binary download with Unison, it was perfectly able to use all the bandwidth at roughly 5% CPU, so something is very wrong with the programming related to fetching headers. Given that the bulk of time spent reading Usenet *is* the fetching of headers and filtering them, it makes Unison unusable as a newsreader. SignatureMy personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, 4ax.com, buzzardnews.com, googlegroups.com, heapnode.com, localhost, x-privat.org >> I find that Unison sits at about 1% - 2% in Menu Meters and only >> increases to about 10% when typing a message. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > that the bulk of time spent reading Usenet *is* the fetching of headers > and filtering them, it makes Unison unusable as a newsreader. Assume what you like bozo – you're probably wrong. Yes Unison peaks when downloading messages but doesn't even approach 100%. The exact numbers won't matter unless we are on equivalent spec machines. The main point is that Unison doesn't meet your needs. It is clearly wrong to say that Unison is "unusable as a newsreader" given that a fair number of people use it every day and don't complain. Try using Pineapple News if you want a really slow download! I would agree that Unison is pretty simple and I would argue that this is why it work well on high bandwidth. Dial-up really REQUIRES good filtering to get the best signal-to-noise ratio in limited time. I would recommend that you send some feedback to Panic if you feel that there is a problem with Unison. They provide excellent support. Failing that just try as many newsreaders as you can and go with the one that works for you. SignatureCheers, Steve The reply-to email address is a spam trap. Email steve 'at' shodgson 'dot' org 'dot' uk > >> I find that Unison sits at about 1% - 2% in Menu Meters and only > >> increases to about 10% when typing a message. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Assume what you like bozo – you're probably wrong. Yes Unison peaks > when downloading messages but doesn't even approach 100%. You want a f.cking screen shot of Activity Monitor? It actually approached 200% because I had to have two windows open fetching headers to keep from going insane. I'm not assuming *anything* "bozo"; I am telling you what I see. Let me just say that it is all kinds of sad that the likes of *your* attitude is here mindlessly defending Unison instead of someone from Panic. > The exact > numbers won't matter unless we are on equivalent spec machines. You have reading comprehension issues. I don't give a rat's a.s about what Mac you have because I have shown that on *my* Mac Unison is far slower than alternatives. That is really all it takes to refute claims of speed. Unison is unreasonably slow, and you have offered no evidence suggesting otherwise. > It is clearly wrong to say that Unison is "unusable as a newsreader" > given that a fair number of people use it every day and don't complain. Maybe they should complain. I registered Unison because I saw promise. Since then, about they only thing they seem to have worked on is binary posting crap. When will I get proper cross-post handling? When will I be able to filter by all provided XOVER headers? Unison is definitely unusable for anyone that actually reads Usenet. > Try using Pineapple News if you want a really slow download! Are you sure you want to make that challenge? Unless you're certain it would take a f.cking *hour* to download the headers for a group with 60k messages, don't put up another newsreader to drag race Unison. > I would agree that Unison is pretty simple and I would argue that this > is why it work well on high bandwidth. Dial-up really REQUIRES good > filtering to get the best signal-to-noise ratio in limited time. You clearly don't understand what you're saying. Filtering only happens *after* headers are downloaded. And you at no time explain why it takes more CPU to process a lower bandwidth connection. Being simple is not an argument; bad programming is. > I would recommend that you send some feedback to Panic if you feel that > there is a problem with Unison. They provide excellent support. I don't "feel" it, I know it and have already written to Panic. While the response was prompt, there is nothing "excellent" about hearing I'm supposed to wait to see what the 2.0 version will include. I'm also none too keen on the fact that despite being a commercial developer of Usenet software for the Mac, they don't seem to have any representative posting in these groups. > Failing > that just try as many newsreaders as you can and go with the one that > works for you. I have. It's MT-Newswatcher. It's not pretty and it carries forward a lot of crappy Carbon conventions, but the foundation is head over heels better than Unison's. SignatureMy personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, 4ax.com, buzzardnews.com, googlegroups.com, heapnode.com, localhost, x-privat.org >>>> I find that Unison sits at about 1% - 2% in Menu Meters and only >>>> increases to about 10% when typing a message. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > that the likes of *your* attitude is here mindlessly defending Unison > instead of someone from Panic. Man you need to calm down a little. I would never dispute that Unison reached 100% on your machine. Pay attention for the next bit ... I was suggesting that your assumption that I was being purposely dense was wrong. NOT that Unison reaches 100%. I would never mindlessly defend Unison because my view is that you can post whatever you like about the application, What I feel does need to be attacked is the assumption that because Unison clearly doesn't work for you then it is a bad Usenet client. Clearly it isn't although it is limited compared to other clients. >> The exact numbers won't matter unless we are on equivalent spec machines. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of speed. Unison is unreasonably slow, and you have offered no > evidence suggesting otherwise. Fair point. Let's go for some evidence then. As machine spec doesn't matter then relative measurements will be fine. If I open Hogwasher it takes approximately 30 seconds before this group refreshes and I can see the latest messages. In Unison the same sequence took about 5 seconds. Hogwasher is running under Rosetta so it will be slugged compared to Unison though. >> It is clearly wrong to say that Unison is "unusable as a newsreader" >> given that a fair number of people use it every day and don't complain. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > will I be able to filter by all provided XOVER headers? Unison is > definitely unusable for anyone that actually reads Usenet. I agree the filtering is pretty poor. Version 1.0 of Unison was pretty useless as a general newsreader but has developed pretty quickly. Lack of cross-post handling is annoying. I would be wary of arguing that because one user finds it unusable then it is unusable for a significant number of users. I am very picky about my Usenet clients and backed away from Unison 1.0 pretty quickly and could not use the current version on dial-up. >> I would agree that Unison is pretty simple and I would argue that this >> is why it work well on high bandwidth. Dial-up really REQUIRES good [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > it takes more CPU to process a lower bandwidth connection. Being > simple is not an argument; bad programming is. You clearly have a problem following my argument so I will say it r e a l l y s l o w l y. When you are on limited bandwidth (say dial-up) it is very important to get the content you want as quickly as you can and get rid of anything you don't want to see. This is where good filtering is a necessity - you can filter on headers, download messages automatically and kill or hide unwanted threads then disconnect as quickly as possible. This is where offline newsreaders shine. On broadband there is less need for this because there is no need to switch from online to offline and that is why the limited number of filter actions in Unison is less of a hinderance. > I'm also none too keen on the fact that despite being a commercial > developer of Usenet software for the Mac, they don't seem to have any > representative posting in these groups. It's their choice. To be honest I have never noticed much in the way of posting from other developers of Usenet software either. I could easily have missed them though. >> Failing that just try as many newsreaders as you can and go with the >> one that works for you. > > I have. It's MT-Newswatcher. It's not pretty and it carries forward a > lot of crappy Carbon conventions, but the foundation is head over heels > better than Unison's. I'm glad you have found one you like. We can stop the debate now if you like. SignatureCheers, Steve The reply-to email address is a spam trap. Email steve 'at' shodgson 'dot' org 'dot' uk > Man you need to calm down a little. I am quite calm. Just because I can back up what I say doesn't mean I'm working hard to do it. > I would never dispute that Unison > reached 100% on your machine. Pay attention for the next bit ... I was > suggesting that your assumption that I was being purposely dense was > wrong. NOT that Unison reaches 100%. Then use your oh-so-wonderful Unison to split up the quotes and reply in context. If you want to cop to being dense for a reason other than intentionally, so be it. :-) > I would never mindlessly defend Unison because my view is that you can > post whatever you like about the application, What I feel does need to > be attacked is the assumption that because Unison clearly doesn't work > for you then it is a bad Usenet client. Clearly it isn't although it is > limited compared to other clients. It's not about me, it's about what Usenet fundamentally *is* and how Unison doesn't even have the basics down. It's pretty enough, but I can't find a single feature of note when using it for either text or binary reading. Yes, I have certain pet peeves for missing features, but not one of the Unison supporters have mentioned any unique feature that makes Unison a good newsreader. > Fair point. Let's go for some evidence then. As machine spec doesn't > matter then relative measurements will be fine. If I open Hogwasher it > takes approximately 30 seconds before this group refreshes and I can > see the latest messages. In Unison the same sequence took about 5 > seconds. Hogwasher is running under Rosetta so it will be slugged > compared to Unison though. Wow, a whole minute of effort you put into that! Now give me a real benchmark to measure something other than an isolated difference in burst processing. Shall I give Hogwasher a go at a group with 60k headers, and do you really think it will take 36 hours to fetch them (i.e., is 6 times slower than Unison)? > I agree the filtering is pretty poor. Version 1.0 of Unison was pretty > useless as a general newsreader but has developed pretty quickly. Lack > of cross-post handling is annoying. I would be wary of arguing that > because one user finds it unusable then it is unusable for a > significant number of users. Again, this has nothing to do with me. The shortcomings of Unison raise fundamental question that *anyone* reading Usenet needs to ask. Do I want to see some of the same messages over and over in all the Mac groups? Do I want to be forced to wade through posts from servers that spew mostly spam? Should I manually have to go from group to group waiting for headers to download? > I am very picky about my Usenet clients > and backed away from Unison 1.0 pretty quickly and could not use the > current version on dial-up. A slow connection isn't the problem; the problem is *Unison*! High bandwidth just masks some of the flaws. The reality is that it doesn't make a very good text reader and it doesn't make a very good binary reader. It may be passable for either if you weren't picky, but I don't know many Mac users that consider "adequate" anything more than "bad". > >> I would agree that Unison is pretty simple and I would argue that this > >> is why it work well on high bandwidth. Dial-up really REQUIRES good [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > You clearly have a problem following my argument so I will say it r e > a l l y s l o w l y. No, you clearly can't form a cogent argument. My speaking slower won't help, so I encourage you to actually think about what is going on when you read Usenet. > When you are on limited bandwidth (say dial-up) it is very important to > get the content you want as quickly as you can and get rid of anything > you don't want to see. I would argue that *any* bandwidth should allow the program to transfer data as fast as possible. Look, Unison is a pig. I could let is slide if it was slow to download but didn't take up much CPU (I could just open dozens of groups at the same time), and I could let it slide if it was fast to download and sucked up CPU like a pig, but when it takes 1 CPU hour to do a 60k header fetch that MT-Newswatcher does in .01 CPU hour, it is not possible to argue in favor of Unison in the speed department. > This is where good filtering is a necessity - > you can filter on headers, download messages automatically and kill or > hide unwanted threads then disconnect as quickly as possible. This is > where offline newsreaders shine. I fail to see how this is an online/offline issue. If you want, I can definitely get into how Unison *doesn't* use its database backend to speed up *reading* news, but that is not significant in a discussion of how to speed up *fetching* news. Nothing you've offered up will get me my headers any faster with Unison. > On broadband there is less need for > this because there is no need to switch from online to offline and that > is why the limited number of filter actions in Unison is less of a > hinderance. Have you figure out why your argument has failed yet? Let me help you out again: filtering still requires the headers to be fetched first! MT-Newswatcher gets them 10x faster using 1/10th the CPU and provides better filtering at the same time. Now explain to me how Unison is anything other than a bad newsreader. Note that I would indeed more tolerant of Unison's shortcoming if it *were* an offline reader because I could just let it grind away as slept. But even then it would *still* be a pig, and it would be better to fix that problem rather than mask it. Instead, the features that seem to have gotten attention by Unison developers is binary uploading, which you hardly need a full-blown newsreader to do. SignatureMy personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, 4ax.com, buzzardnews.com, googlegroups.com, heapnode.com, localhost, x-privat.org >> Unison is fast though. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and has limited filtering, I've found Unison to be unusable. If I had > been able to discover all that before I registered, I never would have. Odd. On my system it is very fast. Most likely because it caches headers. SignatureRobertB >>> Unison is fast though. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Odd. On my system it is very fast. Most likely because it caches headers. Which is the very thing that can bog it down. Frequenters of huge binaries groups must wait while each group's header cache is gone through (deleting old/grabbing new) upon opening a group. SignatureTim lance_1012@hotmail.com > >> Unison is fast though. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Odd. On my system it is very fast. Most likely because it caches headers. That's a total non sequitur; it cannot cache headers it doesn't have. And, realistically, the databases it maintains are essentially worthless based on how most people read Usenet. Who manually clicks from group to group just downloading headers? I had really high hopes, too, when I found out Unison used SQLite databases on the back-end, but as implemented it plays to none of the strengths of Mac other than "pretty". SignatureMy personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, 4ax.com, buzzardnews.com, googlegroups.com, heapnode.com, localhost, x-privat.org >>>> Unison is fast though. >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > as implemented it plays to none of the strengths of Mac other than > "pretty". I'm not sure exactly what it's doing, but it always seems to cache the old messages and add the new ones to a group you access repeatedly. I guess if you don't want to see "all" messages, you have to write a rule and filter them out. Yeah, it's pretty I guess, but it isn't feature rich or highly configurable. And since I'm not interested in binaries, those features aren't much of an enticement. SignatureRobertB >>> I just installed Unison and have been playing with it. Nice interface, >>> but some features I would like to see don't appear to be here. The [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > However, I'm running it on a brand new core2duo on which everything is > fast. If you double-click on a group in the groups window it will open a window showing threads at the top and individual messages at the bottom. There is also a drawer showing favorites and in my case this shows all the subscribed groups in the Subscribed folder. I almost never use the groups wind. If you leave this pseudo-three-pane window open it will be there next time showing all your subscibed groups. As regards display of messages in a thread, where others display the unread message count, I believe Unison displays the unfetched header count. SignatureCheers, Steve The reply-to email address is a spam trap. Email steve 'at' shodgson 'dot' org 'dot' uk |
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