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Mac Forum / General / Hardware / March 2008



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A final report on my search for "computer speakers"

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Curmudgeon - 08 Jan 2008 21:09 GMT
All -

About a week ago, I posted the first message in which became a very long
thread on options for a new "computer speaker" system for my Macintosh.
(I'm enclosing the term in quotes because I was lectured by many from an
audio perspective that all such systems are trash and that I was doomed
if I limited my search to so-called "computer" monitors.)  This my final
review of the system I ultimately chose, the Klipsch ProMedia 2.1.

My initial tendency had been to avoid "computer" systems.  I looked very
closely at a number of what might be considered "hi-fi" solutions.  I've
been an unrepentant audiophile for a number of years, and I know what a
good speaker sounds like.  My downstairs system includes a pair of Spica
TC50s and the associated powered subwoofer driven by a sweet Nakamichi,
and there is a pair of Vandersteen 2Cs in the basement.  I wanted to get
reasonably high fidelity from the computer system since I have carefully
encoded all of the music I've loaded into iTunes as AAC @ 128kbps/44,100
kHz, not entirely lossless but much better than your standard-issue MP3
files.

Thus, I looked first at such speakers as the M-Audio Studiophile AV-40s
and the AudioEngine 2s.  However, it quickly became apparent that I just
didn't have the real estate available for a fairly large two-way system,
so I began to look at three-piece "computer" systems, most specifically
the best available from Altec-Lansing, Klipsch, and Logitech.  (I also
considered replacing the extant [but moribund] Cambridge SoundWorks 2.1
system which had long served me well with an updated version.)  I waded
through review after review until deciding that since the results were
largely inconclusive and I liked the basic design of the Klipsch system
best, I would give them a try.  This decision was bolstered by the fact
that I could get them from Amazon for a mere $110 (vs. $179 list), so I
pushed the "place my order" button and waited.

Despite Amazon's advice that it would take at least a week for them to
deliver my new toys, they arrived on my doorstep two days later, and I
have been happily tweaking ever since.  I was not initially impressed.
The subwoofer was very boomy (even before I placed it where I intended
it to live permanently) and the satellites were very strident and "for-
ward" with a shrill top end.  I figured that perhaps I'd made a mistake
and might be returning them, but decided to play with them for a while
and see whether I could live with them.  I'm glad I did.

I had been very stubborn about retaining the flat EQ setting in iTunes.
I'd set all of my music to play back flat but with a +6dB boost to the
preamp gain (since the Cambridge system wasn't terribly efficient), and
since the Klipsch system seemed to be much more efficient, I reprofiled
everything to Flat/0dB, and began experimenting with speaker placement
using a variety of different genres.

I quickly learned that the satellites were capable of very good detail
and imaging, but wanted to be as far apart and as far from the listener
as possible, so I rearranged my desk to place them at the extreme back
corners (approximately 55" center-to-center and 33" from my position),
and then adjusted their angle to maximize the soundstage imaging.

The Klipsch manual recommends that the optimal subwoofer volume setting
for music is 10:00 (and even provides a mark on the pot), so I set that
as a fixed parameter and then experimented with placement.  I began with
a fully left-cornered position with the driver firing straight sideways
and the port straight ahead, and ultimately moved it about 7" from both
back and left walls.  The former boominess was gone and there wasn't any
of that annoying "localization" of the bass frequencies.

OK, I thought, maybe this is going to be okay.  But the more I listened,
the less I liked it.  Something about the overall profile was wrong, and
I also learned that even at their highest volume setting, there was less
oomph than I'd hoped for.  I could do one of two things: Send them back
or continue to tweak.  The first thing I decided to do was to boost the
iTunes preamp gain setting.  I determined that at full gain (+12dB) and
full output on the computer's settings, the Klipsch system would distort
at its full volume setting.  Not wishing to take chances with clipping,
I began to scale back the iTunes preamp setting and discovered that +11
worked just fine, so I reprofiled all of my source material to Flat/+11.
(This takes a *long* time with over 21,000 selections!)

Listening further, the system just sounded "flat" to me: Lifeless and a
bit dead.  The only parameter left was iTunes' EQ profile and the purist
in me didn't want to alter it.  (I've always been one to switch the tone
controls off whenever possible.)  But the system was in place and there
were options available, so I thought I'd fool around and see what might
be done.  Although I've always distained the "loudness" button on every
amp I've ever owned, I discovered that the "Loudness +11db" settings in
iTunes sounded pretty darn good.  (Makes sense when you think about it.)
So once again, I reprofiled everything to those parameters, and despite
my reservations, I am happy.

Silk purse from a sow's ear?  Perhaps, but I'll tell you this: The more
challenging the source material, the more impressive these speakers are.
They excel with "classical" music, especially very dynamic pieces.  They
are somewhat less impressive with rock, country, blues, jazz, CCM, etc.
I can live with that since most of that stuff was engineered with an ear
towards least-common-denominator playback systems.  If I can be as happy
as I am while Bela Bartok's "Cantata Profana for Tenor, Baritone, Double
Chorus, and Orchestra, Sz 94 (The Nine Splendid Stags)" is playing on my
Mac though these dinky little plastic "boom and tizz" speakers, I'll be
just fine!

Cheers!

Mudge

(All follow-ups have been directed to comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc.)
Jolly Roger - 08 Jan 2008 21:28 GMT
> I quickly learned that the satellites were capable of very good detail
> and imaging, but wanted to be as far apart and as far from the listener
> as possible, so I rearranged my desk to place them at the extreme back
> corners (approximately 55" center-to-center and 33" from my position),
> and then adjusted their angle to maximize the soundstage imaging.

That makes sense to me. I have the 4.1 system with four satelites, and I
placed each satellite in a different corner of the room (using my own
speaker cables). And my sub sits in one corner of the room under a desk.

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Curmudgeon - 08 Jan 2008 21:38 GMT
In article
<jollyroger-392C2A.15280608012008@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,

> > I quickly learned that the satellites were capable of very good detail
> > and imaging, but wanted to be as far apart and as far from the listener
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> placed each satellite in a different corner of the room (using my own
> speaker cables). And my sub sits in one corner of the room under a desk.

Thanks again for your help with this, JR.  I really appreciate it, and
it has been kinda fun to stick a needle into the "audio" balloon,
hasn't
it?

Cheers!

Mudge
Howard Brazee - 11 Jan 2008 03:19 GMT
I just got a 24" iMac and noticed it had one speaker plug.   The
speakers I have available are a pair of Acoustic Research Powered
Partner 570s, and a Logitech Z640 5.1 system that's plugged into a
Phillips PCS805 Aruilium sound card that's USB'd to one of the two
Windows machines I'm giving away.

What options do I have without spending more money?
Curmudgeon - 12 Jan 2008 22:36 GMT
> I just got a 24" iMac and noticed it had one speaker plug.   The
> speakers I have available are a pair of Acoustic Research Powered
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> What options do I have without spending more money?

It really depends on what demands you're going to make on your speakers.
If you are going to be playing games and DVDs that will exploit the 5.1
system, then I'd lean toward the Logitech, but if you're most interested
in music reproduction, I'd go with the ARs.  Hooking up either set ought
to be a snap, but once you've got them working you'll want to spend some
time tuning the system (see my original post) unless you're a much less
critical listener than I am.

Despite all the derision which was heaped on my decision to go with the
Klipsch 2.1 system I bought, I have them working beautifully with pretty
much any kind of music I've thrown at them.  No "boom and tizz" at this
address.

Cheers!

Mudge
MiNe 109 - 08 Jan 2008 21:38 GMT
<snip>

> Silk purse from a sow's ear?  Perhaps, but I'll tell you this: The more
> challenging the source material, the more impressive these speakers are.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Mac though these dinky little plastic "boom and tizz" speakers, I'll be
> just fine!

Enjoy! You've done more tweaking than the usual computer speaker owner
does, although I'm surprised at how much you had to turn up the
preamp-equivalent.

Stephen
Curmudgeon - 08 Jan 2008 22:01 GMT
In article
<smcelroy2-2DBE06.15383608012008@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu>, MiNe
109 <smcelroy2@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:

> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> does, although I'm surprised at how much you had to turn up the
> preamp-equivalent.

Thank you, Stephen, I mean to!  I was also surprised at how much higher
I needed to boost the preamp gain, but the volume control on the Klipsch
is *very* gradual.

Nonetheless, I'm happy as I listen to Emil Gilels play Beethoven's piano
sonatas as I am right this moment.

Cheers!

Mudge
MiNe 109 - 08 Jan 2008 22:17 GMT
> In article
> <smcelroy2-2DBE06.15383608012008@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu>, MiNe
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Nonetheless, I'm happy as I listen to Emil Gilels play Beethoven's piano
> sonatas as I am right this moment.

Cool. His Op 106 was one of my first cd purchases.

Stephen
Curmudgeon - 08 Jan 2008 22:26 GMT
In article
<smcelroy2-B29981.16173708012008@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu>, MiNe
109 <smcelroy2@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:

> > In article
> > <smcelroy2-2DBE06.15383608012008@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu>, MiNe
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Cool. His Op 106 was one of my first cd purchases.

You're OK in my book, my friend!  One thing I have noticed about this
system is that if there is significant hiss in the original recording
(i.e., DG 419-624 Beethoven: Egmont & Wellington's Victory), you will
most certainly hear it!

Cheers!

Mudge
Howard Brazee - 09 Jan 2008 16:24 GMT
>Enjoy! You've done more tweaking than the usual computer speaker owner
>does, although I'm surprised at how much you had to turn up the
>preamp-equivalent.

To me, all of those settings are a set once and forget thing. Adjust
them to my speakers & room until they are flat.

Of course, if I use headphones, I want a different setting, and I
don't see equipment that stores a setting for each output.

And if I'm listening on an iPod, the iTunes should be matching my
iPod's needs, not my computer/stereo's setting.
Király - 27 Jan 2008 06:33 GMT
In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc Curmudgeon <leave@me.alone> wrote:
> I've been an unrepentant audiophile for a number of years [...]

And you encoded all your music into AAC 128kbps?  Try again in 256k or
in Apple Lossless and do a comparison test.  I don't claim to be an
audiophile and I can certainly hear the difference.  For a true
audiophile it should be like night and day.

Signature

K.

Lang may your lum reek.

Curmudgeon - 29 Feb 2008 14:24 GMT
> In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc Curmudgeon <leave@me.alone> wrote:
> > I've been an unrepentant audiophile for a number of years [...]
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> audiophile and I can certainly hear the difference.  For a true
> audiophile it should be like night and day.

Been there, done that, and my experience parallels that reported by
Ken Rockwell:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/itunes.htm

Since file size is an important parameter, I stick with what sounds
most natural to me.  I detect no "night and day" difference between
AAC/128 and higher rates.  Perhaps, as Ken suggests, I should label
myself a music lover rather than an audiofile.  I'm fine with that,
and using AAC/128 encoding has allowed me to load 21,060 selections
(just short of 72 days total time) onto 98.48 GB.

Cheers!

Mudge

Signature

"Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse?"

Howard Brazee - 29 Feb 2008 15:53 GMT
>Since file size is an important parameter, I stick with what sounds
>most natural to me.  I detect no "night and day" difference between
>AAC/128 and higher rates.  Perhaps, as Ken suggests, I should label
>myself a music lover rather than an audiofile.  I'm fine with that,
>and using AAC/128 encoding has allowed me to load 21,060 selections
>(just short of 72 days total time) onto 98.48 GB.

I'd still like to have a copy of all of my songs stored in a lossless
manner.   This is the Master copy.     Then I'd like the option to
define a Play List with a lower resolution, so when I sync it to my
iPod, it takes its time but saves me space.    I might have one
playlist for a nano, and another (with the same songs), with a more
spacious iPod.

(I want multiple iTunes working together with multiple iPods as well).
Clever Monkey - 19 Mar 2008 20:52 GMT
>> In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc Curmudgeon <leave@me.alone> wrote:
>>> I've been an unrepentant audiophile for a number of years [...]
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> and using AAC/128 encoding has allowed me to load 21,060 selections
> (just short of 72 days total time) onto 98.48 GB.

The only problem I've had is that your results depend highly on the
source data.

The same bitrate and encoding format can sound reasonable for one track,
and highlight weak bass, introduce AM distortion ("shimmer") on higher
frequencies, and throw away audio subtleties making the song sound
curiously incomplete (a little like those "remove the voice" karaoke
filters).  Human voices buried a little "in the mix" are one of the
first things to be thrown away with lossy compression.

I wish I had an (easy) way to mark a track for re-encoding when I hear a
bad track so I can remember to redo it.

Any sufficiently large library of encoded music will have these sorts of
things.  Even previewing songs on the iTMS will sometimes yield
*terrible* sounding tracks.
Signature

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Direct replies to this address will be blacklisted.  Replace "spamtrap"
with my name to contact me directly.

Curmudgeon - 20 Mar 2008 00:16 GMT
> >> In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc Curmudgeon <leave@me.alone> wrote:
> >>> I've been an unrepentant audiophile for a number of years [...]
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> things.  Even previewing songs on the iTMS will sometimes yield
> *terrible* sounding tracks.

I tried higher rates for a wide variety of source tracks, especially
classical material since I thought that's where any benefits would be
most evident, and I never heard any consistent improvement sufficient
to convince me to change my ways.

When I encounter a bad track while listening to my library, I use the
Grouping column to label it by entering the word "BAD" into it, and I
have a smart playlist which collects them so I can replace them in a
single session without having to go looking for them.

Cheers!

Mudge

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"Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse?"

 
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