A final report on my search for "computer speakers"
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Curmudgeon - 08 Jan 2008 21:09 GMT All -
About a week ago, I posted the first message in which became a very long thread on options for a new "computer speaker" system for my Macintosh. (I'm enclosing the term in quotes because I was lectured by many from an audio perspective that all such systems are trash and that I was doomed if I limited my search to so-called "computer" monitors.) This my final review of the system I ultimately chose, the Klipsch ProMedia 2.1.
My initial tendency had been to avoid "computer" systems. I looked very closely at a number of what might be considered "hi-fi" solutions. I've been an unrepentant audiophile for a number of years, and I know what a good speaker sounds like. My downstairs system includes a pair of Spica TC50s and the associated powered subwoofer driven by a sweet Nakamichi, and there is a pair of Vandersteen 2Cs in the basement. I wanted to get reasonably high fidelity from the computer system since I have carefully encoded all of the music I've loaded into iTunes as AAC @ 128kbps/44,100 kHz, not entirely lossless but much better than your standard-issue MP3 files.
Thus, I looked first at such speakers as the M-Audio Studiophile AV-40s and the AudioEngine 2s. However, it quickly became apparent that I just didn't have the real estate available for a fairly large two-way system, so I began to look at three-piece "computer" systems, most specifically the best available from Altec-Lansing, Klipsch, and Logitech. (I also considered replacing the extant [but moribund] Cambridge SoundWorks 2.1 system which had long served me well with an updated version.) I waded through review after review until deciding that since the results were largely inconclusive and I liked the basic design of the Klipsch system best, I would give them a try. This decision was bolstered by the fact that I could get them from Amazon for a mere $110 (vs. $179 list), so I pushed the "place my order" button and waited.
Despite Amazon's advice that it would take at least a week for them to deliver my new toys, they arrived on my doorstep two days later, and I have been happily tweaking ever since. I was not initially impressed. The subwoofer was very boomy (even before I placed it where I intended it to live permanently) and the satellites were very strident and "for- ward" with a shrill top end. I figured that perhaps I'd made a mistake and might be returning them, but decided to play with them for a while and see whether I could live with them. I'm glad I did.
I had been very stubborn about retaining the flat EQ setting in iTunes. I'd set all of my music to play back flat but with a +6dB boost to the preamp gain (since the Cambridge system wasn't terribly efficient), and since the Klipsch system seemed to be much more efficient, I reprofiled everything to Flat/0dB, and began experimenting with speaker placement using a variety of different genres.
I quickly learned that the satellites were capable of very good detail and imaging, but wanted to be as far apart and as far from the listener as possible, so I rearranged my desk to place them at the extreme back corners (approximately 55" center-to-center and 33" from my position), and then adjusted their angle to maximize the soundstage imaging.
The Klipsch manual recommends that the optimal subwoofer volume setting for music is 10:00 (and even provides a mark on the pot), so I set that as a fixed parameter and then experimented with placement. I began with a fully left-cornered position with the driver firing straight sideways and the port straight ahead, and ultimately moved it about 7" from both back and left walls. The former boominess was gone and there wasn't any of that annoying "localization" of the bass frequencies.
OK, I thought, maybe this is going to be okay. But the more I listened, the less I liked it. Something about the overall profile was wrong, and I also learned that even at their highest volume setting, there was less oomph than I'd hoped for. I could do one of two things: Send them back or continue to tweak. The first thing I decided to do was to boost the iTunes preamp gain setting. I determined that at full gain (+12dB) and full output on the computer's settings, the Klipsch system would distort at its full volume setting. Not wishing to take chances with clipping, I began to scale back the iTunes preamp setting and discovered that +11 worked just fine, so I reprofiled all of my source material to Flat/+11. (This takes a *long* time with over 21,000 selections!)
Listening further, the system just sounded "flat" to me: Lifeless and a bit dead. The only parameter left was iTunes' EQ profile and the purist in me didn't want to alter it. (I've always been one to switch the tone controls off whenever possible.) But the system was in place and there were options available, so I thought I'd fool around and see what might be done. Although I've always distained the "loudness" button on every amp I've ever owned, I discovered that the "Loudness +11db" settings in iTunes sounded pretty darn good. (Makes sense when you think about it.) So once again, I reprofiled everything to those parameters, and despite my reservations, I am happy.
Silk purse from a sow's ear? Perhaps, but I'll tell you this: The more challenging the source material, the more impressive these speakers are. They excel with "classical" music, especially very dynamic pieces. They are somewhat less impressive with rock, country, blues, jazz, CCM, etc. I can live with that since most of that stuff was engineered with an ear towards least-common-denominator playback systems. If I can be as happy as I am while Bela Bartok's "Cantata Profana for Tenor, Baritone, Double Chorus, and Orchestra, Sz 94 (The Nine Splendid Stags)" is playing on my Mac though these dinky little plastic "boom and tizz" speakers, I'll be just fine!
Cheers!
Mudge
(All follow-ups have been directed to comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc.)
Jolly Roger - 08 Jan 2008 21:28 GMT > I quickly learned that the satellites were capable of very good detail > and imaging, but wanted to be as far apart and as far from the listener > as possible, so I rearranged my desk to place them at the extreme back > corners (approximately 55" center-to-center and 33" from my position), > and then adjusted their angle to maximize the soundstage imaging. That makes sense to me. I have the 4.1 system with four satelites, and I placed each satellite in a different corner of the room (using my own speaker cables). And my sub sits in one corner of the room under a desk.
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JR
Curmudgeon - 08 Jan 2008 21:38 GMT In article <jollyroger-392C2A.15280608012008@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> > I quickly learned that the satellites were capable of very good detail > > and imaging, but wanted to be as far apart and as far from the listener [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > placed each satellite in a different corner of the room (using my own > speaker cables). And my sub sits in one corner of the room under a desk. Thanks again for your help with this, JR. I really appreciate it, and it has been kinda fun to stick a needle into the "audio" balloon, hasn't it?
Cheers!
Mudge
Howard Brazee - 11 Jan 2008 03:19 GMT I just got a 24" iMac and noticed it had one speaker plug. The speakers I have available are a pair of Acoustic Research Powered Partner 570s, and a Logitech Z640 5.1 system that's plugged into a Phillips PCS805 Aruilium sound card that's USB'd to one of the two Windows machines I'm giving away.
What options do I have without spending more money?
Curmudgeon - 12 Jan 2008 22:36 GMT > I just got a 24" iMac and noticed it had one speaker plug. The > speakers I have available are a pair of Acoustic Research Powered [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What options do I have without spending more money? It really depends on what demands you're going to make on your speakers. If you are going to be playing games and DVDs that will exploit the 5.1 system, then I'd lean toward the Logitech, but if you're most interested in music reproduction, I'd go with the ARs. Hooking up either set ought to be a snap, but once you've got them working you'll want to spend some time tuning the system (see my original post) unless you're a much less critical listener than I am.
Despite all the derision which was heaped on my decision to go with the Klipsch 2.1 system I bought, I have them working beautifully with pretty much any kind of music I've thrown at them. No "boom and tizz" at this address.
Cheers!
Mudge
MiNe 109 - 08 Jan 2008 21:38 GMT <snip>
> Silk purse from a sow's ear? Perhaps, but I'll tell you this: The more > challenging the source material, the more impressive these speakers are. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Mac though these dinky little plastic "boom and tizz" speakers, I'll be > just fine! Enjoy! You've done more tweaking than the usual computer speaker owner does, although I'm surprised at how much you had to turn up the preamp-equivalent.
Stephen
Curmudgeon - 08 Jan 2008 22:01 GMT In article <smcelroy2-2DBE06.15383608012008@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu>, MiNe 109 <smcelroy2@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:
> <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > does, although I'm surprised at how much you had to turn up the > preamp-equivalent. Thank you, Stephen, I mean to! I was also surprised at how much higher I needed to boost the preamp gain, but the volume control on the Klipsch is *very* gradual.
Nonetheless, I'm happy as I listen to Emil Gilels play Beethoven's piano sonatas as I am right this moment.
Cheers!
Mudge
MiNe 109 - 08 Jan 2008 22:17 GMT > In article > <smcelroy2-2DBE06.15383608012008@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu>, MiNe [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Nonetheless, I'm happy as I listen to Emil Gilels play Beethoven's piano > sonatas as I am right this moment. Cool. His Op 106 was one of my first cd purchases.
Stephen
Curmudgeon - 08 Jan 2008 22:26 GMT In article <smcelroy2-B29981.16173708012008@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu>, MiNe 109 <smcelroy2@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:
> > In article > > <smcelroy2-2DBE06.15383608012008@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu>, MiNe [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Cool. His Op 106 was one of my first cd purchases. You're OK in my book, my friend! One thing I have noticed about this system is that if there is significant hiss in the original recording (i.e., DG 419-624 Beethoven: Egmont & Wellington's Victory), you will most certainly hear it!
Cheers!
Mudge
Howard Brazee - 09 Jan 2008 16:24 GMT >Enjoy! You've done more tweaking than the usual computer speaker owner >does, although I'm surprised at how much you had to turn up the >preamp-equivalent. To me, all of those settings are a set once and forget thing. Adjust them to my speakers & room until they are flat.
Of course, if I use headphones, I want a different setting, and I don't see equipment that stores a setting for each output.
And if I'm listening on an iPod, the iTunes should be matching my iPod's needs, not my computer/stereo's setting.
Király - 27 Jan 2008 06:33 GMT In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc Curmudgeon <leave@me.alone> wrote:
> I've been an unrepentant audiophile for a number of years [...] And you encoded all your music into AAC 128kbps? Try again in 256k or in Apple Lossless and do a comparison test. I don't claim to be an audiophile and I can certainly hear the difference. For a true audiophile it should be like night and day.
 Signature K.
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Curmudgeon - 29 Feb 2008 14:24 GMT > In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc Curmudgeon <leave@me.alone> wrote: > > I've been an unrepentant audiophile for a number of years [...] [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > audiophile and I can certainly hear the difference. For a true > audiophile it should be like night and day. Been there, done that, and my experience parallels that reported by Ken Rockwell:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/itunes.htm
Since file size is an important parameter, I stick with what sounds most natural to me. I detect no "night and day" difference between AAC/128 and higher rates. Perhaps, as Ken suggests, I should label myself a music lover rather than an audiofile. I'm fine with that, and using AAC/128 encoding has allowed me to load 21,060 selections (just short of 72 days total time) onto 98.48 GB.
Cheers!
Mudge
 Signature "Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse?"
Howard Brazee - 29 Feb 2008 15:53 GMT >Since file size is an important parameter, I stick with what sounds >most natural to me. I detect no "night and day" difference between >AAC/128 and higher rates. Perhaps, as Ken suggests, I should label >myself a music lover rather than an audiofile. I'm fine with that, >and using AAC/128 encoding has allowed me to load 21,060 selections >(just short of 72 days total time) onto 98.48 GB. I'd still like to have a copy of all of my songs stored in a lossless manner. This is the Master copy. Then I'd like the option to define a Play List with a lower resolution, so when I sync it to my iPod, it takes its time but saves me space. I might have one playlist for a nano, and another (with the same songs), with a more spacious iPod.
(I want multiple iTunes working together with multiple iPods as well).
Clever Monkey - 19 Mar 2008 20:52 GMT >> In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc Curmudgeon <leave@me.alone> wrote: >>> I've been an unrepentant audiophile for a number of years [...] [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > and using AAC/128 encoding has allowed me to load 21,060 selections > (just short of 72 days total time) onto 98.48 GB. The only problem I've had is that your results depend highly on the source data.
The same bitrate and encoding format can sound reasonable for one track, and highlight weak bass, introduce AM distortion ("shimmer") on higher frequencies, and throw away audio subtleties making the song sound curiously incomplete (a little like those "remove the voice" karaoke filters). Human voices buried a little "in the mix" are one of the first things to be thrown away with lossy compression.
I wish I had an (easy) way to mark a track for re-encoding when I hear a bad track so I can remember to redo it.
Any sufficiently large library of encoded music will have these sorts of things. Even previewing songs on the iTMS will sometimes yield *terrible* sounding tracks.
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Curmudgeon - 20 Mar 2008 00:16 GMT > >> In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc Curmudgeon <leave@me.alone> wrote: > >>> I've been an unrepentant audiophile for a number of years [...] [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > things. Even previewing songs on the iTMS will sometimes yield > *terrible* sounding tracks. I tried higher rates for a wide variety of source tracks, especially classical material since I thought that's where any benefits would be most evident, and I never heard any consistent improvement sufficient to convince me to change my ways.
When I encounter a bad track while listening to my library, I use the Grouping column to label it by entering the word "BAD" into it, and I have a smart playlist which collects them so I can replace them in a single session without having to go looking for them.
Cheers!
Mudge
 Signature "Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse?"
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