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Mac Forum / General / Hardware / August 2007Avant Stellar keyboard?
Anyone use this with the their Macs? What's involved in using the two together?  SignatureThe System Has Failed > Anyone use this with the their Macs? What's involved in using the two > together? I'm curious as to what objective and independent studies have been made of these so-called "ergonomic" keyboards which seem to invariably split the keyboard into a left and right half and have the halves tilted, supposedly to have the keys align with the placement of the hands. I'm currently using one of the new Apple keyboards. When I place my hands over the keys my fingers literally align with they keys and my wrists are in a relaxed position. When I do the same with one of the split keyboards in order to have my fingers align with the keys I have to have a degree of twist in my wrist and that twist creates a degree of discomfort. I'm not aware of there being any requirement to the use of the word "ergonomic" and it appears, at least to me, that the word is used more as a marketing gimmick than anything else. SignatureJames Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com >> Anyone use this with the their Macs? What's involved in using the two >> together? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > requirement to the use of the word "ergonomic" and it appears, at least to > me, that the word is used more as a marketing gimmick than anything else. I think the point is that straight on is unnatural, that it requires you to hold your hands more rigid. The fact that it has become the norm doesn't actually mean it's the best choice, it just means that everything else gets compared to it. I got a split keyboard almost a year ago, and have used it. It took some adapting on my part, but it was never a troublesome process. I don't know whether it's better or not, I do know that I'm fully adapted. What is quite significant is that in the days of typewriters, all you did was type (or make corrections). You could really get up good speeds, once you got going, because nothing got in the way. But computer keyboards are used for far more than typing. ANd for a lot of people, they do relatively little actual "typing". And I suspect the split keyboard is not so great for that useage. It's created for you to type well, but you have to keep leaving those home keys to do control sequences and such. Indeed, you are likely to use the keyboard for all kinds of manipulations, and just comparatively few sentences. The old style keyboard may not even be the best keyboard for this new situation. The fact that some/many computers use mice for the control purposes is just a reinforcement of this. Because you have to take your hand off the keyboard to use the mouse, and that breaks your rhythm. It's noteworthy that I can type without looking at my hands, but in the computer age, I spend a lot of time typing wrong strings of characters because I've not put my hands back in the proper place, or spend time making sure my hands are back in the right place before I start typing. Michael > TaliesinSoft (taliesinsoft@mac.com) writes: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > doesn't actually mean it's the best choice, it just means that everything > else gets compared to it. When my hands are positioned on the home keys of my Apple keyboard my elbows are about four inches out from the sides of my body. My arms approach the keyboard at about 45 degree angles. The index and pinky fingers are almost straight and the middle two fingers have a greater degree of bend. All of the fingers are resting on the home keys without any conscious effort on my part. In contrast, when I position my hands on the home keys of a split keyboard my elbows are now more like nine inches from my sides and the wrists are turned slightly outwards from their "relaxed" position. The end result is that, at least for me, using the split keyboard is somewhat more tiring. > I got a split keyboard almost a year ago, and have used it. It took some > adapting on my part, but it was never a troublesome process. I don't know [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > just a reinforcement of this. Because you have to take your hand off the > keyboard to use the mouse, and that breaks your rhythm. I tend to be a strong mouse user, in general preferring to use the mouse when an alternative keyboard action is available. I have no problem having my right hand leave the keyboard, use the mouse, and then return to the right-hand home position on the keyboard without my having to look. > It's noteworthy that I can type without looking at my hands, but in the > computer age, I spend a lot of time typing wrong strings of characters > because I've not put my hands back in the proper place, or spend time > making sure my hands are back in the right place before I start typing. SignatureJames Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com >I think the point is that straight on is unnatural, that it requires >you to hold your hands more rigid. The fact that it has become the >norm doesn't actually mean it's the best choice, it just means that >everything else gets compared to it. Unnatural does not necessarily mean unhealthy. But it is interesting to look at astronauts sleeping, with their arms extended in front of them. If I hold my hands out "naturally", my palms point around 30° down from facing each other. That would indicate that there would be less twisting (and less chance for rubbing my tendons wrong), with a keyboard shaped this way. >It's noteworthy that I can type without looking at my hands, but in >the computer age, I spend a lot of time typing wrong strings of characters >because I've not put my hands back in the proper place, or spend time >making sure my hands are back in the right place before I start typing. That's why I like keyboards with distinctive shapes for the F and J keys that I can feel. > > Anyone use this with the their Macs? What's involved in using the two > > together? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of the new Apple keyboards. When I place my hands over the keys my fingers > literally align with they keys and my wrists are in a relaxed position... The natural, and therefore truly relaxed, hand position is where the outstretched fingers are reasonably parallel to the lengthwise midline of the lower arm. That position is impossible to achieve on a normal keyboard since, in order to place the fingertips properly on the keys, the hands must be canted outward 15-25 degrees at the wrist. That strains certain muscles & ligaments when extensive typing is done. It would be interesting to find out how well the various ergonomic keyboard types actually work, I agree. While I don't have a split keyboard, my ulnar tunnel syndrome recovered nicely after I switched to a flexible, properly positioned lap tray (a Techline). The difference was remarkable. > ...When I do the same with one of the split keyboards in order to > have my fingers align with the keys I have to have a degree of twist > in my wrist and that twist creates a degree of discomfort. I'm not > aware of there being any requirement to the use of the word > "ergonomic" and it appears, at least to me, that the word is used > more as a marketing gimmick than anything else. > In article <0001HW.C2F4D508001EE255B019F94F@news.supernews.com>, > TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@mac.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > interesting to find out how well the various ergonomic keyboard types > actually work, I agree. As I mentioned in another response in this thread, when my hands are positioned on the home keys of a conventional keyboard my hands are not canted outwards but are literally in what I'll dub the relaxed position. And, in this relaxed position my fingers fall onto the home keys. As an aside I have a very good friend who has been typing at over 100 words per minute for over 50 years and she fully agrees with me that the conventional keyboard is far more "natural" in terms of hand placement when compared to the so-called "ergonomic" split keyboards. > While I don't have a split keyboard, my ulnar tunnel syndrome recovered > nicely after I switched to a flexible, properly positioned lap tray (a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> at least to me, that the word is used more as a marketing gimmick than >> anything else. SignatureJames Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com > > In article <0001HW.C2F4D508001EE255B019F94F@news.supernews.com>, > > TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@mac.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > canted outwards but are literally in what I'll dub the relaxed position. And, > in this relaxed position my fingers fall onto the home keys. The laws of physics are pretty straightforward here. Unless your index fingers are your longest and your middle & ring fingers are progressively shorter, what you describe is not the relaxed position in a person of typical bone and muscle structure. Here is a good illustration of the hands: <http://us.kensington.com/html/6437.html> Of course we all have our preferences and our habits to which we've adapted ourselves. The human body is amazingly flexible. Plenty of research has been done on the matter of keyboarding ergonomics. You may want to start with the Cornell page here: <http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ahtutorials/ckd.htm> There are also numerous articles & reseearch in the relevant professional literature (some available via Google Scholar). You can continue to believe it's all a big money-making rip-off (no doubt some of it may be) but I would only point out that one or two opinions hardly constitute a reasonable consensus. > As an aside I have a very good friend who has been typing at over 100 words > per minute for over 50 years and she fully agrees with me that the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >> at least to me, that the word is used more as a marketing gimmick than > >> anything else. [stuff from prior messages in the thread snipped] > The laws of physics are pretty straightforward here. Unless your index > fingers are your longest and your middle & ring fingers are progressively [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > <http://us.kensington.com/html/6437.html> When I type on my normal keyboard my arms, wrists, and fingers are positioned as shown in the Kensington "Comfort Type" picture. I couldn't even bring my arms, wrists, and fingers into the position shown in the "Uncomfortable" picture. When one is typing the fingers should be bent, not straight out, and the bending tends to place the fingers in a horizontal line, the angle of which aligns itself to the home row on a conventional keyboard. > Of course we all have our preferences and our habits to which we've > adapted ourselves. The human body is amazingly flexible. Plenty of > research has been done on the matter of keyboarding ergonomics. You may > want to start with the Cornell page here: > > <http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ahtutorials/ckd.htm> I have noted that there is a seemingly increasing tendency for people to type with their fingers almost straight out as opposed to having a strong bend in their fingers. The same people who type with their hands flat also seem to be the ones that use wrist rests, another device which I find a total impediment to good typing as when I type the bases of my wrists are moving and a wrist rest would interfere with such movement. > There are also numerous articles & reseearch in the relevant professional > literature (some available via Google Scholar). You can continue to > believe it's all a big money-making rip-off (no doubt some of it may be) > but I would only point out that one or two opinions hardly constitute a > reasonable consensus. Admittedly I'm citing from my own experience. I will say that I am a good typist and have been so for almost 60 years now. I have adapted from the manual typewriters which required a keystroke of significant depth to the new keyboards where the keystroke depth is perhaps an eighth of an inch. As an analogy, one I'll take responsibility for, I relate typing somewhat to playing an instrument such as a piano. You don't see piano players with their hands flat and you don't see them with wrist rests either. [more snipping from prior postings] SignatureJames Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com > On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 11:17:47 -0500, Madwen wrote > > > <http://us.kensington.com/html/6437.html> > > When I type on my normal keyboard my arms, wrists, and fingers are positioned > as shown in the Kensington "Comfort Type" picture. Me, too. Also, there are some odd things about those two Kensington pictures. One is that the *hands* in the "Uncomfortable" picture are in almost the same position relative to the keyboard as they are in the "Comfort Type" picture -- the only difference is that the arms are angled outwards more. In other words, the "Uncomfortable" typist's problem is simply that he's sitting too close to the keyboard. Another is that, as far as I can see, the keys on the "Comfort Type" keyboard seem to be in exactly the same places as they are on a regular keyboard, just with differently shaped keytops. I can't see how this makes any difference to the rest position of the hands. Anyway, you can count me in with the people who find regular keyboards a better shape than ergonomic ones. Maybe it's something that varies from one person to another. -- Greg [some text from prior posting snipped] > The laws of physics are pretty straightforward here. Unless your index > fingers are your longest and your middle & ring fingers are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > <http://us.kensington.com/html/6437.html> When I am typing on my conventional keyboard my hands are positione as shown in the Kensington "Comfort Type" and not as shown in the "Conventional" picture. When one is properly typing the fingers are bent, the result being that the tips of the fingers tend to fall into a straight line. Furthermore the fingers are in line with the home keys on the conventional keyboard. There was no way I could comfortably bring my arms and hands into the position shown in the Kensington "Conventional" keyboard picture. > Of course we all have our preferences and our habits to which we've > adapted ourselves. The human body is amazingly flexible. Plenty of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > of it may be) but I would only point out that one or two opinions hardly > constitute a reasonable consensus. I'll take a look at the Cornell study. Thanks for the reference. I've noticed that there are a great many persons who type with their hand almost flat and not arched. When the hands are in such a position the finger tips are no longer in a straight line. I've noticed too that the same persons that hold their hands flat also tend to like the so-called wrist rests, a device I consider to be a complete impediment to good typing. As an analogy I will use the person who plays the piano with their fingers arched and without a wrist rest. I have been a good typist for some 60 years now, and spend a fair amount of time typing, and I've never experienced any pain in the wrists or in the fingers. During those years I have moved from manual typewriters which required a deep keystroke with an amount of pressure to the newest computer keyboards with minimum key travel and minimum pressure requirement. [more snipping] SignatureJames Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com > Anyone use this with the their Macs? What's involved in using the two > together? Guys... do you mind staying on topic.. and tell me if you have actually *used* the aformentioned keyboard on a mac? ;) SignatureThe System Has Failed >> Anyone use this with the their Macs? What's involved in using the two >> together? > Guys... do you mind staying on topic.. and tell me if you have actually > *used* the aformentioned keyboard on a mac? ;) Me, using mine on a Mac Pro, works just fine. Also seamless when using Fusion and Windows XP. -->Neil > Me, using mine on a Mac Pro, works just fine. Also seamless when using > Fusion and Windows XP. What did you map the CD-eject key to on the Stellar? And how did you? SignatureThe System Has Failed > Anyone use this with the their Macs? What's involved in using the two > together? Just fished mine out of storage and tried it. If anyone is interested.. seems to work pretty damn well. SignatureThe System Has Failed |
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