Help in diagnosing 8500 problem

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pmp - 26 Jan 2007 01:04 GMT

I was tring to resurrect my old 8500/G3 tonight, and found that it will
no longer boot. The machine was working fine up until I put it into
storage about 18 months ago.

I pulled the case open. The CarrierZIF card with the 400 MHz G3
processor is blinking happily. I tried swapping to the Apple 132 MHz
processor card, that did nothing. Pulled the HDs, nothing.

I did notice that the power supply isn't as "loud" as it used to be.
But, the machine itself still gets power. The HDs spin up, I can open
and close the CD tray, and as I said: the Processor card "life" LED is
blinking.

Can anyone suggest what I can do to try and get this machine up and
running again? I really only want it so that I can access some SCSI
devices I have, and will probably run OS 8.6 or my all-time fave 7.6.1.

Thanks,
Patrick

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bearclaw@cruller.invalid - 26 Jan 2007 06:38 GMT

> I was tring to resurrect my old 8500/G3 tonight, and found that it will
> no longer boot. The machine was working fine up until I put it into
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Thanks,
> Patrick

The one time my 8500 a/v wouldn't start, it turned out the SIMMs weren't
seated right. Push those puppies in tight and try it again. You might
want to try changing the PRAM battery, too, just for the heck of it.

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Erik Richard Sørensen - 26 Jan 2007 13:45 GMT

Hei Patrick

> I was tring to resurrect my old 8500/G3 tonight, and found that it will
> no longer boot. The machine was working fine up until I put it into
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> and close the CD tray, and as I said: the Processor card "life" LED is
> blinking.

To me it sounds like a dead PRAM battery, so the first I'd do is to
replace this with a fresh one.

Don't worry about the power supply, since it first get noisy, when it's
rather warm...

> Can anyone suggest what I can do to try and get this machine up and
> running again? I really only want it so that I can access some SCSI
> devices I have, and will probably run OS 8.6 or my all-time fave 7.6.1.

The 8500 is a real 'working horse' and is rather useful for use with
older equipments like SCSI as you mention. But I'd upgrade the system to
the Mac OS 9.2.2, since you have a G3 processor. You will really get lot
more space out of it running the 9.2.2.

You can install OS 9.1 directly without problems, - maybe you need the
'OS9Helper 1.0.1' to install the 9.2.1 and then the 9.2.2 updates to the
9.1. http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macos/16906

You can also install OS X 10.3.x on it, but this requires the use of
XPostFacto 4.x or newer. Using this, you now also get the availability
of the SCSI card on these PCI Macs.

I presume that you have a newer machine running OS X, so with either OS
9.2.2 or an OS X 10.3.x you can set the machines in an ethernet network
and get much more out of it.

If you like to, you can also add a combo USB+Firewire PCI card. Install
such a card before you install an OS 9.. or OS X 10.3.x, so you also
will be able to use both USB and Firewire on it.

To make use of a USB+FW card you might need the 'Apple Mac OS USB DDK
1.5.x' kit and install the extensions in the folder 'Extensions Apple
Build' instead of the drivers in OS 9.x. I did this to my old PM 9600
and it is now working just fine and fast with such a combo card.
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macos/363

With a FW, USB or combo USB+FW card mounted before installing OS 9.x,
the OS 9.x installer will automatically install std. support for both
USB and Firewire.

HTH, Cheers, ERik Richard

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Mike Rosenberg - 26 Jan 2007 21:56 GMT

> To me it sounds like a dead PRAM battery, so the first I'd do is to
> replace this with a fresh one.

Only the Performa 475/Quadra 605 and the PowerMac/Performa 61xx series
won't boot up if the PRAM battery is dead. (Well, technically, they
_do_ boot up but without video.) Other models, including the 8500
_will_ boot up with a dead battery, but the date will be reset to
default each time.

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Erik Richard Sørensen - 26 Jan 2007 22:35 GMT

Hei Mike

>> To me it sounds like a dead PRAM battery, so the first I'd do is to
>> replace this with a fresh one.
>
> Only the Performa 475/Quadra 605 and the PowerMac/Performa 61xx series
> won't boot up if the PRAM battery is dead. (Well, technically, they
> _do_ boot up but without video.)

Sorry to say that's pure nonsense, Mike. I as well as one of my friends
still have and have had more of those PCI PowerMacs - amo. PM 7200,
7300, 7600, 8500, 8600 (85/8600 both with/without G3 card), 9500 and
9600. And sure I can state that those will not boot with a dead PRAM
battery! - You can trick a PM 6100 and 6150Server to boot without a PRAM
battery, but it's risky. - In worst case you can burn off the motherboard...

> Other models, including the 8500 _will_ boot up
> with a dead battery, but the date will be reset to
> default each time.

If so, then it indeed is really funny that as soon as a new battery was
inserted _ALL_ of these models booted like a dream with systems from
7.6.1 to OS X 10.3.5.... - And don't forget, Mike, that I'm still
dealing with some of these machines daily...

Cheers, Erik Richard

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Mike Rosenberg - 26 Jan 2007 22:49 GMT

> Sorry to say that's pure nonsense, Mike. I as well as one of my friends
> still have and have had more of those PCI PowerMacs - amo. PM 7200,
> 7300, 7600, 8500, 8600 (85/8600 both with/without G3 card), 9500 and
> 9600. And sure I can state that those will not boot with a dead PRAM
> battery!

So all the times I've replaced batteries in all of these models for
clients over the years it's been both their delusions and mine that
they've booted with the dead battery but with the date and other
parameters set to default?

Maybe it's another example of things being different in Denmark, but I
have witnessed most, if not all, of those models boot up with dead
batteries. And if you want to claim that I'm mistaken about which
models I've worked on, I can assure you that no one can possibly
disassemble and reassemble an 8500 or 9500 and not remember it in
excruciating detail.

> You can trick a PM 6100 and 6150Server to boot without a PRAM battery, but
> it's risky. - In worst case you can burn off the motherboard...

All you have to do to boot a 61xx with a dead battery is turn it on,
turn it off, then turn it on immediately. This is the first time I've
ever heard anyone claim there's a risk to the motherboard.

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Mike Rosenberg - 26 Jan 2007 23:26 GMT

It's occurred to me that perhaps you mean they're unable to find the
startup system and give the flashing question mark icon instead, and if
that's what you mean, yes, I've seen that occasionally, although not as
a rule.

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Erik Richard Sørensen - 26 Jan 2007 23:29 GMT

Hei Mike

>> Sorry to say that's pure nonsense, Mike. I as well as one of my friends
>> still have and have had more of those PCI PowerMacs - amo. PM 7200,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> that's what you mean, yes, I've seen that occasionally, although not as
> a rule.

Both this but also a totally black screen and no HD spin up...

Cheers, Erik Richard

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Mike Rosenberg - 26 Jan 2007 23:58 GMT

> Both this but also a totally black screen and no HD spin up...

Let's start all over. Are you saying that the models you listed won't
start up with dead batteries, or that _sometimes_ they won't? I got the
impression you meant they _NEVER_ will, but maybe I misinterpreted.

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Erik Richard Sørensen - 27 Jan 2007 01:10 GMT

Hei Mike

>> Both this but also a totally black screen and no HD spin up...
>
> Let's start all over. Are you saying that the models you listed won't
> start up with dead batteries, or that _sometimes_ they won't?

I'm saying that they won't start-up - understood in the way that either
a blank grey or black screen - with one exception - the PM 7200 shows
the floppy with a '?' inside or with a bit darker grey screen.

> I got the impression you meant they _NEVER_ will, but maybe
> I misinterpreted.

Of course the startup sound comes on _all_ of them, but then nothing
more. - That's not what I call a 'start-up'. To me this is more a
'turning-on', since there are power to the machine. But sometimes the
PMU unit hasn't enough voltage/power to turn the powerswitch to the HDs
on. This I've seen more times with both PM 7200 and 7600 with the top
cabinet taken off. - Sometimes - but not always you can hear a very low
'click' as if a relay switch is trying to connect...

The OP also said that he could hear both the power supply and harddisk
and that the red light on the CPU was enlightened as well. - This is
what I call the 'normal' behavior, when a battery is dead...

OK, he can try to hold down the PMU button for 3-4seconds and then press
the powerbutton on the keyboard or the front of the machine. But if the
minimum rest in the battery isn't that much so it can charge the
condensor with enough voltage to activate the switches, - then it'll do
no good... and a replacement battery is the only solution...

cheers, Erik Richard

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Mike Rosenberg - 27 Jan 2007 14:37 GMT

> Of course the startup sound comes on _all_ of them, but then nothing
> more...

> The OP also said that he could hear both the power supply and harddisk
> and that the red light on the CPU was enlightened as well. - This is
> what I call the 'normal' behavior, when a battery is dead...

First, you said you hear the startup sound, but the OP made no mention
of that, so we don't know if he's had that or not.

Second, I have no idea why your "normal" behavior is so radically
different from mine, but as I've said, I've seen most all 7200, 7300,
7600, 8500, 8600, 9500 and 9600 Power Macs boot up when the battery is
dead but display the default August 1956 date and have AppleTalk revert
to on via the printer port. Why this is different in Denmark is a
mystery.

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Mac Forum / General / Hardware / January 2007

Help in diagnosing 8500 problem