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Mac Forum / General / Hardware / January 2006



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Help with radioactive iMac G3

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Charles Lavin - 12 Jan 2006 04:01 GMT
Hi --

I have an iMac G3 running (or "attempting to run") Mac OS 9.2.2 that has
suddenly gone radioactive on me, and I can't figure out the problem. I'm not
that well versed in troubleshooting Macs; any help will be greatly
appreciated.

For starters, the computer won't boot properly. If I switch it on, it will
at some point tell me that it encountered an error (usually something like
"Illegal Instruction") and that I should disable extensions by rebooting
while pressing SHIFT.

When I reboot while pressing SHIFT, I might still get that same error.
Sometimes I will, sometimes I won't. I think it has to do with when I
release the SHIFT key. If I release the SHIFT key after I get the "Welcome
to Macintosh / Extensions off" screen, chances are the computer will crash
before I get to the desktop. I get the best results when I keep SHIFT held
down until after I get the "Loading" screen.

When I do get the desktop, with all extensions disabled, the computer is
pretty useless. I can't copy the files off to another location -- I have no
network connection, no CD access, nada.

And nothing seems to want to work properly, either. Just about every program
I try to run will, at some point, bomb with an error 1 or an error 3, or
worse.

I can't get the Extensions Manager to run, no matter what. It always bombs
with an error 3.

I haven't been able to delve into the machine's configuration, because I
can't get any program or utility to run properly.

The iMac had 128 MB of RAM (2 x 64). I tried to rule out memory problems
(faulty memory, insufficient memory) by replacing that with first 1x256 MB,
then 2x256 MB. It didn't solve anything.

I did notice, in the brief moments when I could get useful information out
of the computer, that it seems to have virtual memory switched off. I tried
to rectify that once, but the moment I changed the virtual memory settings,
the program crashed.

I tried booting the iMac from an OS X (one of the early ones) install disk.
The computer crashed.

I tried booting it from several different versions of OpenDarwin install
disks. No luck there, either.

The hard drive, however, seems to be OK. At least when I get the desktop, I
can view the contents of the hard drive and verify that all the user files I
want to move off to another computer (or other media) are there. It's only
when I try to open the files (which launches the associated application)
that the application crashes.

I wasn't able to run the Extensions Manager, but I was able to move all but
the most basic extensions out of the Extensions folder into a "Disabled
Extensions" folder. That didn't help any.

Not too long ago, this computer was working fine. It was part of a mixed
Mac/Windows LAN. It printed to two networked printers -- an AppleLaser
printer and an HP multifunction printer. It had a USB CD burner that worked.
It could scan across the network from the HP multifunction device. It could
surf the Internet.

Now, I'd be happy to get the user files off this computer and on to some
other computer.

What could be the problem here? Is this computer salvageable? Will reloading
the OS help (I haven't been able to yet ...)?

Thanks,
CL
Howard S Shubs - 12 Jan 2006 04:43 GMT
> What could be the problem here? Is this computer salvageable? Will reloading
> the OS help (I haven't been able to yet ...)?

Could be memory, could be the motherboard.  Since you tried different
memory, I expect that's out, leaving the motherboard.  Can you swap that?

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my "party" is "pro-choice" defined as "do as thou wilt", with certain limits.

Charles Lavin - 12 Jan 2006 06:25 GMT
If it's the motherboard, I'm outta luck ... I have no iMac motherboards
here.

Thanks,
CL

>> What could be the problem here? Is this computer salvageable? Will
>> reloading
>> the OS help (I haven't been able to yet ...)?
>
> Could be memory, could be the motherboard.  Since you tried different
> memory, I expect that's out, leaving the motherboard.  Can you swap that?
Howard S Shubs - 12 Jan 2006 12:45 GMT
> If it's the motherboard, I'm outta luck ... I have no iMac motherboards
> here.

eBay.  Local used computer stores.

It's the flakiness that gets me.  It kinda sounds like memory, or some
other part, is failing itermitantly, and/or something has come partially
loose.  Given that the non-memory devices on the motherboard are not
exactly user-replacable, that leaves replacing the whole motherboard.  
Or maybe you can make them itty bitty solders by hand?

Whether it's heat related or not, that would still mean the motherboard,
or maybe one of its connections to other things, is having problems.  
You might try reseating connections.  Since you've already done the
memory, I expect that's okay.

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my "party" is "pro-choice" defined as "do as thou wilt", with certain limits.

Charles Lavin - 12 Jan 2006 14:36 GMT
After you mentioned the motherboard, I opened the case to make sure nothing
was loose.

That 3.6V battery on the motherboard is, for all intents and purposes, dead.
It reads .05V on my voltmeter.

As soon as Radio Shack opens, I'm going down to get a replacement. I'm not
sure how this battery compares to a CMOS battery on an x86 motherboard.
Could the battery failure be causing my problems?

CL

P.S. What's that little pushbutton on the motherboard about midway between
the IDE connector and the side connections plate? Right about where there's
a blank plate on this PC covering a missing jack (would that have been a
FireWire jack on another model iMac?)?

>> If it's the motherboard, I'm outta luck ... I have no iMac motherboards
>> here.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> You might try reseating connections.  Since you've already done the
> memory, I expect that's okay.
Derryck Croker - 12 Jan 2006 14:37 GMT
> P.S. What's that little pushbutton on the motherboard about midway
> between the IDE connector and the side connections plate?

Could be the CUDA reset switch. After you've changed the battery give
this a press for about 30 secs or so then switch on.

You're clearing the NVRAM of details of what peripherals are attached,
it's quite possible that this has become corrupted.

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Cheers

Derryck

Tony Craine - 12 Jan 2006 05:49 GMT
> What could be the problem here? Is this computer salvageable? Will reloading
> the OS help (I haven't been able to yet ...)?

Just a stab in the dark, but are there any USB peripherals connected to
it? It's been a long time, but I remember once or twice having horrible
problems like the one you're describing and solving it by disconnecting
everything connected to the computer. I don't remember why this worked,
exactly, but it did.
Charles Lavin - 12 Jan 2006 06:24 GMT
The only USB devices connected are the keyboard and mouse.

The keyboard is connected to the computer; the mouse is connected to the
keyboard.

There was a USB hub to which were also connected an APC UPS and an Iomega CD
burner. But none of that was brought over. I just have the computer here.

Thanks,
CL

>> What could be the problem here? Is this computer salvageable? Will
>> reloading
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> everything connected to the computer. I don't remember why this worked,
> exactly, but it did.
Bill - 12 Jan 2006 15:11 GMT
> Hi --
>
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
> Thanks,
> CL

You say you tried booting from an OS X CD. That might not work out of
the box on that old iMac.

Have you tried booting from an OS 9 install CD? That machine was
originally built with some version of OS 8 or 9 installed. If you have
the original Software CD that came with it, you can try booting from
that. Likewise if you have a later OS 9 CD.

If it boots OK from the CD, then the motherboard and RAM etc are OK. You
can check the hard drive using Disk First Aid from the CD. (See
Utilities on the CD). if that all checks out, then something is hosed in
the operating system on the HD. There are various things you can try to
troubleshoot that. IN the end, you may need to do a clean install of the
OS.

Bill Collins

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Charles Lavin - 12 Jan 2006 17:00 GMT
Hi --

The owner does not have the original OS install CDs. What I do have are an
OS 9.1 update CD and an OS 9.2.2 update CD. I may have to get a new OS 9
license for this machine (I've been telling the owner to do that for years
now), but if the computer is fried, I have no use for an uninstallable OS 9
license ... Which is why I tried older versions of OpenDarwin for PPC.

CL

>> Hi --
>>
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
>
> Bill Collins
Howard S Shubs - 13 Jan 2006 03:39 GMT
> but if the computer is fried, I have no use for an uninstallable OS 9
> license ... Which is why I tried older versions of OpenDarwin for PPC.

Sensible.  Now I'm *burning* with curiousity!  How'd the new battery
work out?

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my "party" is "pro-choice" defined as "do as thou wilt", with certain limits.

Charles Lavin - 13 Jan 2006 08:31 GMT
It didn't!

I installed the battery, pressed that little button for 30 seconds,
reassembled the computer and switched it on. It blew up with the same error
("press SHIFT to boot with extensions disabled").

But now the computer won't boot at all. I switch it on, I get the chime
(which now has static-like background noise), I hear the hard drive whir for
a few seconds, but the display never lights up. I never get the little Mac
icon, and the computer never gets anywhere.

I got fed up with it after this, so I disconnected the computer and haven't
worked on it since this morning.

CL

>> but if the computer is fried, I have no use for an uninstallable OS 9
>> license ... Which is why I tried older versions of OpenDarwin for PPC.
>
> Sensible.  Now I'm *burning* with curiousity!  How'd the new battery
> work out?
Dave Stanton - 14 Jan 2006 15:59 GMT
> It didn't!
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> CL

This is very much like a G3 B&W I have sitting here. Doing exactly the
same and I have found that this one is not initialising the pci bus as it
boots.Therefore the graphics card never gets started.

Dave
Tim McNamara - 12 Jan 2006 18:37 GMT
> You say you tried booting from an OS X CD. That might not work out
> of the box on that old iMac.

My iMac Rev B will boot from an OS X CD and will run 10.3.9 without
any problems.  However, Open Firmware needed to be updated before
before it would run OS X under any circumstances.  Booting from and OS
9 CD is a good idea as a fallback check to see what's what.
Anders Eklöf - 12 Jan 2006 23:13 GMT
> I have an iMac G3 running (or "attempting to run") Mac OS 9.2.2 that has
> suddenly gone radioactive on me, and I can't figure out the problem. I'm not
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> before I get to the desktop. I get the best results when I keep SHIFT held
> down until after I get the "Loading" screen.

And best - and there is a good chance for that - a system component or
just a preference file is damaged.

What you need is a Mac OS 9.1 or 9.2 Installer CD as mentioned by
others. Did I just hear someone mentioning Ebay ???

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I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines
to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour

Charles Lavin - 13 Jan 2006 08:35 GMT
"I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines
to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour"

LOL -- But I've been fighting with this iMac for days now. And locating
pertinent information about its problems -- either by error, symptom,
whatever -- on the Apple site or elsewhere on the Internet is a mostly
fruitless endeavor. It's not even that I don't know where to look ... I
usually can find a starting point for a resolution to my Windows or *nix
problems with a simple Google search. But not this time ...

CL

>> I have an iMac G3 running (or "attempting to run") Mac OS 9.2.2 that has
>> suddenly gone radioactive on me, and I can't figure out the problem. I'm
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> What you need is a Mac OS 9.1 or 9.2 Installer CD as mentioned by
> others. Did I just hear someone mentioning Ebay ???
Tim McNamara - 13 Jan 2006 15:46 GMT
Sorry if this has already been mentioned.  If you boot from a CD (OS 9
or OS X) with the C key held down, will it boot then?  If yes, it's
likely a problem with the hard drive- either the system software is
hosed and needs to be reinstalled of the drive is kaput.  If no, then
there is some other hardware problem.

Apologies if the rest of this has already been covered.  I haven't
been following closely.  If booting from the CD fails, I'd start with
making sure the daughterboard that holds the RAM cards, and the RAM
cards themselves, is properly seated.

http://www.theimac.com/ram_vram_steps.shtml

Also- great starting point for old Mac stuff:

http://www.lowendmac.com/

Then I'd try booting it zapping the PRAM.

http://macs.about.com/cs/onlinecourses/a/tsclassic02.htm

Then I'd try booting into Open Firmware:

http://bananajr6000.apple.com/

http://www.bombich.com/mactips/openfirmware.html

and try typing "bye" to complete the boot into Mac OS (with Open
Firmware 1.0.5, 2.0.x, or 2.4) or "mac-boot" (OF 3) to see if it was
possible to "jump start" the Mac.

Hope one of these ideas helps.
Charles Lavin - 14 Jan 2006 15:52 GMT
Thanks for the info. Ill check out those links.

The computer won't boot from CD-ROMs I've tried. Well, it does "boot from
the CD" when I keep the C key down, but then the computer crashes.

I did open the unit and puttered around. It looks like everything is
properly seated and connected. I didn't unscrew the daughterboard to check
what was underneath (above?) it, though. I did find that the 3.6V battery
was pretty much dead. But replacing the battery didn't help.

I'll follow some of the procedures you listed. But probably not until
Monday.

Thanks again,
CL

> Sorry if this has already been mentioned.  If you boot from a CD (OS 9
> or OS X) with the C key held down, will it boot then?  If yes, it's
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Hope one of these ideas helps.
Salmon Egg - 15 Jan 2006 03:56 GMT
Jus how much radioactivity is there? What is the half life?

Bill
Tim McNamara - 15 Jan 2006 18:35 GMT
> Jus how much radioactivity is there? What is the half life?

Too early to tell in my case.  My iMac Rev B is 7 years old and going
strong.  Could keep radiating usefulness for years to come.  Could die
tomorrow.
Motorboat - 15 Jan 2006 03:44 GMT
> Hi --
>
> I have an iMac G3 running (or "attempting to run") Mac OS 9.2.2 that
> has suddenly gone radioactive on me, and I can't figure out the
> problem. I'm not

I had exactly the same problem with my Bondi iMac rev B. I had to wipe
the drive and re-install with 9.2.1. I could never get 9.2.2 to work
with my machine. 10.2.8 and/or 9.2.1 run just fine. I tried about 5
times to get 9.2.2 to install and work and it just wouldn't boot
(illegal instruction). I have since frozen this iMac at 9.2.1 and
10.2.8, for peace of mind.
 
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