What features do we like about Eudora?
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David Morrison - 17 Oct 2006 06:01 GMT I have been using Eudora for many years, and have come to rely on its features, many of which have no equivalent in other mail clients.
Now the Penelope project is saying they want input on what features we (the users) regard as most important. It might be worth compiling a combined list of features to guide them in their work. Even if they cannot provide all these features in the first release, it will allow them to plan the implementation so as to be able to include them later.
So here is a starting point, in no particular order - except for the first one!! If you want to add items, please consider including a brief description of why you see it as important.
* Mac-like interface, ie, uses Mac conventions in window layout and themes, menu names, popup menu behaviour, etc. (And for many of us long term users, some of the OS X features should be optional, eg, drawers. They can be there, but the interface should have alternate "traditional" ways to do the same thing.)
* Fast operation
* Fast search (not Spotlight!)
* Separate windows for mailbox lists and messages
* Good support for personalities, especially that many things are configurable on a per personality basis rather than globally
* Powerful filtering (although it has to be said that while the current filter dialogues work, they are a little cumbersome if you have lots of filters. Some way of grouping related filters would be wonderful.)
* Ability to label messages with colours and text. (I use this to flag messages that need further action, are a note to help me find them in future, or are related to a particular project.)
* Ability to change the Subject of a received message so as to make it more meaningful so it can be found more easily
* Ability to have stationery and signatures selectable by personality, and to override them for individual messages
* Support for POP and IMAP
* Recipient lists
* Good junk mail filtering
* Hierarchical mailbox structure, ie, mailboxes within folders within folders...
* Ability to queue mail before sending (I have often written a message and clicked on send, to realise a few minutes later that I should have included something else, or been a little more temperate in my choice of words. Queueing messages gives me some time to change a message before it gets out of my control.)
* Auto-complete nicknames, and do this immediately
* Ability to select which columns are displayed in a mailbox window. (Would be nice to be able to rearrange the columns too!)
* Ability to read mail as plain text, ie, not HTML, and to send mail as plain text.
* Many, many of the configuration options such as the Moving Around and Getting Attention settings.
* Comprehensive logging options (The logging has allowed me to solve various strange behaviours over the years.)
* Desktop margins, ie, making windows leave space for the dock or other items on the desktop
* Deleting duplicate messages
* Smart paste, ie, pasting attributions before text from another message
* Hide boring headers
* Threading (Would be great if it were possible to put checking mail into separate threads so all accounts were not held up by one having problems.)
* Authenticated HTTP proxy support
* Spell checking, including the autocorrect dictionary from Adam Engst, and availablity of dictionaries for dialects of English and other languages
* Ability to increase or decrease quoting level while composing a message, and to paste text as a quote.
Note that there will be seemingly contradictory features in a combined list, eg, some people *love* three-paned interfaces, while others run a mile from them. This should not be taken to be a fight for which one gets implemented. It should really be considered that the developers need to provide a choice of window metaphor to make everyone happy.
If there are a lot of extra suggestions, I will try to compile them into a single list from time to time.
Cheers
David
David Morrison - 17 Oct 2006 06:26 GMT > So here is a starting point, in no particular order - except for the > first one!! If you want to add items, please consider including a brief > description of why you see it as important. One critical one for my workflow....
* When new mail is received, all the mailboxes that messages have been filtered into open and remain open until I have dealt with the messages. This way I don't forget them.
David
Bernd Fröhlich - 17 Oct 2006 08:37 GMT > If there are a lot of extra suggestions, I will try to compile them into > a single list from time to time. Here is one of my favorites:
-Keep mail but trash the attachments. (Sometimes I get mail with huge attachments. I want to copy the attachments to another place and do something with them, then trash them. I still want to keep the mails but not the attachments.)
Tim Streater - 17 Oct 2006 09:43 GMT In article <davidmor-55C8FA.15013517102006@eth00.pnews.internode.on.net>,
> So here is a starting point, in no particular order - except for the > first one!! If you want to add items, please consider including a brief > description of why you see it as important. I keep all mail relating to a particular topic in its own mailbox - both incoming and outgoing. The facts therefore that:
1) I can get a copy saved automatically to a particular mailbox (or more than one)
2) MOST IMPORTANTLY, Eudora has a "Who" column instead of separate "From" and "To" columns, is crucial. The "Who" column show who mail is sent to (for sent mail) or who mail is from (for received mail).
-- tim
David Morrison - 17 Oct 2006 14:05 GMT > So here is a starting point, in no particular order - except for the > first one!! If you want to add items, please consider including a brief > description of why you see it as important. * Option/click in a field in the mailbox window and it groups all messages with the same field value.
David
Rifty - 17 Oct 2006 14:56 GMT > So here is a starting point, in no particular order - except for the > first one!! If you want to add items, please consider including a brief > description of why you see it as important. Its ability to sort mail in as mailbox quickly and painlessly is handy, in that you can switch very quickly from viewing the latest emails to all those from one person or subject - and back again! with just two clicks.
Rifty
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Sandy Foster - 17 Oct 2006 15:10 GMT In article <davidmor-55C8FA.15013517102006@eth00.pnews.internode.on.net>,
> I have been using Eudora for many years, and have come to rely on its > features, many of which have no equivalent in other mail clients. [quoted text clipped - 101 lines] > > David Great list, David! I can't think of anything you haven't mentioned and that I'd like to see! <G>
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Norbert Lieckfeldt - 17 Oct 2006 19:10 GMT > Great list, David! I can't think of anything you haven't mentioned and > that I'd like to see! <G> I'd like to be able to save outgoing messages in plain text, and in my IMAP "sent items" folder. Haven't yet found a way to do either...
N.
Kathy Morgan - 18 Oct 2006 23:55 GMT > I'd like to be able to save outgoing messages in plain text, and in my > IMAP "sent items" folder. Haven't yet found a way to do either... Does "Save as..." not work with IMAP? (It may be that I'm misunderstanding what you want to do.)
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Bill Cole - 19 Oct 2006 01:00 GMT > > I'd like to be able to save outgoing messages in plain text, and in my > > IMAP "sent items" folder. Haven't yet found a way to do either... > > Does "Save as..." not work with IMAP? (It may be that I'm > misunderstanding what you want to do.) IMAP is intrinsically a server-centric protocol. Messages remain on the server so that they can be accessed by multiple clients from multiple locations, in a hierarchical folder/mailbox tree. A common feature of IMAP mailbox storage hierarchies is a "Sent Items" mailbox that contains sent mail, the analog of a POP client's (i.e. Eudora's) "Out" mailbox.
A really strong IMAP client (i.e. NOT EUDORA, at least not yet) would let the user define which IMAP mailboxes should be used for common functions such as Trash, Drafts, Sent Mail, and Junk. Because a common reason for using IMAP is that the user has multiple devices with varying clients, a client should allow the user to specify which mailbox is which so that clients which require or prefer specific names for specific functional mailboxes (e.g. Outlook, Apple Mail) can be accommodated by the better, more flexible clients (e.g. hopefully Penelope)
Personally, I stuck to POP3 for a dozen years and dealt with using multiple devices by having one machine play God with the POP3 mailbox while other clients carefully never deleted anything. I finally got to the point where trying IMAP was pretty painless and actually presented some advantages, and I have found over the past 6 months that Eudora is a really lame IMAP client. Even with the tight binding of personalities to mailboxes (I'm working on a detailed writeup of why that's a problem....) it would make sense for a client to at least optionally stash mail sent with an IMAP personality in a specified IMAP mailbox rather than to only keep a copy on the local machine. Eudora doesn't. If you want to put your sent mail onto the IMAP server sa Sent mail, you need to rig up filters to do it.
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Norbert Lieckfeldt - 19 Oct 2006 08:34 GMT > > I'd like to be able to save outgoing messages in plain text, and in my > > IMAP "sent items" folder. Haven't yet found a way to do either... > > Does "Save as..." not work with IMAP? (It may be that I'm > misunderstanding what you want to do.) Sorry, probably wasn't entirely clear about this but Bill has responded to it most eloquently. And when sending messages, Eudora inserts formatting tags that other clients can't translate and which show up if you access your sent mail folder with another client.
N.
Tim Streater - 17 Oct 2006 16:30 GMT In article <davidmor-55C8FA.15013517102006@eth00.pnews.internode.on.net>,
> I have been using Eudora for many years, and have come to rely on its > features, many of which have no equivalent in other mail clients. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > They can be there, but the interface should have alternate "traditional" > ways to do the same thing.) Actually, apropos of this, are we talking about the Mac version in particular? I use Eudora 7.1 at work and 6.latest at home. Mac fiend tho I am, I have to say I prefer to use 7.1 because for the Mac version we need:
1) Fast searching
2) The palette needs to be able to float - having it anchored in one of two places is a bit limiting
3) There is some talk of a 32k mails limit for the Mac version (dunno if this is true or not) which should be lifted if so. (Note: I have 46,000 mails in my Trash at work - I keep a years worth).
4) I in fact like the fact that I can dock the various items together - for simplicity I use Eudora/XP with one large window that I can move around together, containing a mailbox listing, the preview pane, the button bar, and the mailbox pane. Not a Mac way perhaps of doing things but most convenient for me. Flexibility here is the key. I can adjust the relative size of these items, which one can't do with the OS-X drawer.
-- tim
Kwan Yeoh - 18 Oct 2006 11:45 GMT > 2) The palette needs to be able to float - having it anchored in one of > two places is a bit limiting The only problem I might see here is that the windows must not be allowed to slip underneath the palette, if it is docked against a sidewall of the monitor.
> 4) I in fact like the fact that I can dock the various items together - > for simplicity I use Eudora/XP with one large window that I can move [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the relative size of these items, which one can't do with the OS-X > drawer. I guess flexibility is the key. I hate the three-pane view.
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Julian Y. Koh - 17 Oct 2006 17:00 GMT The #1 feature of Mac Eudora: <x-eudora-setting:319=32>
:)
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Kathy Morgan - 20 Oct 2006 07:28 GMT > The #1 feature of Mac Eudora: <x-eudora-setting:319=32> Until you reminded me, I'd been forgetting to try that setting. Now my Mac keeps saying, "You're a kook! You're a kook!" :-)
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Corentin Cras-Méneur - 17 Oct 2006 19:51 GMT > * Fast search (not Spotlight!) On this specific point: I would agree that searches in Eudora are incredibly fast. I would still like Spotlight integration to be able to find all my e-mails from Spotlight as well... [...]
> * Spell checking, including the autocorrect dictionary from Adam Engst, > and availablity of dictionaries for dialects of English and other > languages Though when you wite e-mails in more than one language, the current scheme is a bit of a pain. You have to enable all dictionaries together instead of being able to switch between languages. I'm not delighted to have both French and US dictionaries used at the same time for all my e-mails.
In addition to what I like in Eudora, there is the list of things I *would* like in Eudora. It's pretty easy to start it... list all the new features we were supposed to get in version 7 :-\ - (WebKit - but we'll get Gecko instead. That's OK) - S/MIME (Thunderbird supports it, but not throught he Keychaina and the X509 anchors) - Spotlight - system address book real integration ...
Corentin
Steve W. Jackson - 17 Oct 2006 21:38 GMT > > * Fast search (not Spotlight!) > > On this specific point: I would agree that searches in Eudora are > incredibly fast. I would still like Spotlight integration to be able to > find all my e-mails from Spotlight as well... > Perhaps I'm missing something...Spotlight *did* search my Eudora mailboxes until I added them to its Privacy list so that it wouldn't.
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Sander Tekelenburg - 18 Oct 2006 05:19 GMT [...]
> Perhaps I'm missing something...Spotlight *did* search my Eudora > mailboxes until I added them to its Privacy list so that it wouldn't. But when you opened a result, you opened the mailbox and still had to manually hunt down the specific message.
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Kathy Morgan - 18 Oct 2006 23:55 GMT > Perhaps I'm missing something...Spotlight *did* search my Eudora > mailboxes until I added them to its Privacy list so that it wouldn't. I have not been able to do that. I did add the Eudora folder to the privacy list, but doing so had no affect; Spotlight still throws up half a dozen mailboxes every time I do a search.
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David Lesher - 19 Oct 2006 15:05 GMT Need:
Ability to read messages in plain text. I really like the fact I can totally eschew ever sending mail that's not ASCII.
Keystroke to take current message screen, and start your chosen external editor, with said text. When you exit it, the result is back in Eudora. This will let you easily use a real editor [be it BBBedit, Textedit even err TECO...] with powerful features you need.
When you POP mail down, a X-header that timestamps when it arrives. {To help resolve "Mail is slow" whining...}
Have/Like
Lots of things, but overall, its consistency...
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Sander Tekelenburg - 18 Oct 2006 05:43 GMT In article <davidmor-55C8FA.15013517102006@eth00.pnews.internode.on.net>,
[...]
> * Powerful filtering (although it has to be said that while the current > filter dialogues work, they are a little cumbersome if you have lots of > filters. Some way of grouping related filters would be wonderful.) A method to change the view of the filter list (filter the filters) could be useful. OTOH, if filters would allow more than just 2 rules you'd need fewer filters to begin with...
Allowing filters to trigger scripts would be good too.
[...]
> * Ability to select which columns are displayed in a mailbox window. > (Would be nice to be able to rearrange the columns too!) Yes. Rearranging columns would be good. Especially for Voice Over users.
Some things I find missing in your list:
- Good AppleScript support (meaning better than in current Eudora) - 'Smart Mailboxes' (you can do that now in Eudora, but some of it still requires manual action) - Sorting by References - Unicode support - user-configurable presentation of f=f messages (a simple implementation might be through User Style Sheets, given that Gecko appears to be the rendering engine) - possibility to seemlessly use an external editor could be nice - fail-safe way to disable interpretation of non-text (HTML, javascript, etc.) -- in this sense I'm worried about the Gecko aspect of Penelope - no doubt a million other things available in Eudora today that have grown on me so much I don't even think about them anymore
Absolutely essential to me will be that it is not just 'Mac-like', but also integrates well with system technologies (Keychain, AppleScript, LaunchServices, etc.), which usually is far from the case with cross-platform apps...
 Signature Sander Tekelenburg, <http://www.euronet.nl/~tekelenb/>
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David M. Nieporent - 19 Oct 2006 07:26 GMT >So here is a starting point, in no particular order - except for the >first one!! If you want to add items, please consider including a brief >description of why you see it as important. A very good list. A few additions or comments...
>* Mac-like interface, ie, uses Mac conventions in window layout and >themes, menu names, popup menu behaviour, etc. (And for many of us long >term users, some of the OS X features should be optional, eg, drawers. >They can be there, but the interface should have alternate "traditional" >ways to do the same thing.)
>* Fast operation
>* Fast search (not Spotlight!) 100% yes. Maybe 1000% yes. I've been stuck using the various flavors of Outlook, OE, Thunderbird at times in the past, on PC and Mac, and searching a few hundred messages can take longer than searching tens of thousands of messages on Eudora. *Don't* change that, just for some trendy Spotlight integration. I want to search emails _within_ my email program.
>* Separate windows for mailbox lists and messages 100% yes, again! I don't want panes. I want to have multiple mailboxes open when i want, and I want to have as many message windows open as I choose.
And I love having all the mailboxes with new messages open when I get them. It's so much nicer than the paned approach of marking the mailboxes that have unread messages in them.
>* Good support for personalities, especially that many things are >configurable on a per personality basis rather than globally And allowing us to assign personalities to messages with filters, so that we can respond properly to a message without having to manually change those settings.
>* Powerful filtering (although it has to be said that while the current >filter dialogues work, they are a little cumbersome if you have lots of >filters. Some way of grouping related filters would be wonderful.) Grouping would be very good. It would be nice to be able to have more than two criteria per filter, also.
You know, as I go down the list, I want to say yes to everything, so I won't do that. I agree with everything I've deleted, and I'll just leave in the ones I have comments about.
>* Ability to queue mail before sending (I have often written a message >and clicked on send, to realise a few minutes later that I should have >included something else, or been a little more temperate in my choice of >words. Queueing messages gives me some time to change a message before >it gets out of my control.) And the related ability to schedule that mail to be sent whenever, at any time in the future. I use it for reminders for myself and others all the time.
>* Hide boring headers More importantly, allowing us to *pick* which headers are "boring" and which aren't. I don't want a developer deciding which headers I'm interested in; I want to decide. And allowing us to toggle between all headers/some headers easily, rather than burying that ridiculously deep in some menu (the way OE does.)
>Note that there will be seemingly contradictory features in a combined >list, eg, some people *love* three-paned interfaces, while others run a >mile from them. This should not be taken to be a fight for which one >gets implemented. It should really be considered that the developers >need to provide a choice of window metaphor to make everyone happy. Yes. The sheer number of options in Eudora's settings absolutely dwarfs the number in any other mail client with which I'm familiar. Keep that. That's the whole reason to use it.
>If there are a lot of extra suggestions, I will try to compile them into >a single list from time to time. Jon - 19 Oct 2006 11:42 GMT > You know, as I go down the list, I want to say yes to everything, so I > won't do that. AOL ;-))
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Julian Y. Koh - 19 Oct 2006 20:42 GMT Bringing back PGP integration would be nice. I realize that this was due as much to actions of the PGP group as those of Qualcomm/Eudora, but it still would be nice to bring back. The proxied network connection method of the present PGP 9.x product is not really sufficient.
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Hauke Fath - 20 Oct 2006 11:06 GMT > Bringing back PGP integration would be nice. I realize that this was due as > much to actions of the PGP group as those of Qualcomm/Eudora, but it still > would be nice to bring back. The proxied network connection method of the > present PGP 9.x product is not really sufficient. While you mention that -- is there any way of using Eudora Light with GnuPG? The AppppleScripts at
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/chang/EudoraGPG/
appear to use a "Scripts" menu that the light Eudora does not have. Any workaround for that?
hauke
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Julian Y. Koh - 20 Oct 2006 22:15 GMT > While you mention that -- is there any way of using Eudora Light with > GnuPG? I'm not sure. I tried GnuPG a bit here and there, but it really likes doing things with Unix linefeed characters, which Eudora doesn't get along well with.
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Hauke Fath - 24 Oct 2006 10:34 GMT > > While you mention that -- is there any way of using Eudora Light with > > GnuPG? > > I'm not sure. I tried GnuPG a bit here and there, but it really likes doing > things with Unix linefeed characters, which Eudora doesn't get along well > with. Hm. So, what PGP thing is there for Eudora on Macintosh?
The pgp.com web pages list the Windows version of Eudora as supported for PGP 9.5, but not the Mac version. A big advantage of Thunderbird is the smooth gpg integration through Enigmail.
hauke
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Sander Tekelenburg - 26 Oct 2006 07:27 GMT [...]
> The pgp.com web pages list the Windows version of Eudora as supported > for PGP 9.5, but not the Mac version. The word "supported" has lost its meaning. (My guess is that today's meaning is they don't offer a PGP plug-in or Eudora.)
PGP works with any text app that suports the Services menu, which includes Eudora.
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Klaus Hereth - 20 Oct 2006 13:21 GMT One very important setting:
Styled Text -> When receiving styled mail, pay attention to:
I removed the checks for Font and Size and this makes me an extremely satisfied user of this aged piece of software.
I am not switching to any application that does not have this setting.
Greets,
Klaus
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Hauke Fath - 20 Oct 2006 13:53 GMT > One very important setting: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I am not switching to any application that does not have this setting. What is missing, though, from both Eudora (discussed here recently) and Thunderbird (AFAICS), is a way of picking the text/plain MIME section of a mail.
That is, do not render text/html minus the markup that the user de-selected (and, adding insult to injury, drop the text/plain section without comment, like Eudora does it). Instead, go with text/plain _always_, avoiding the rendering engine bugs 'du jour.' If there is nothing but text/html (can you say 'AOL 8'?), then make up a text/plain version on the fly.
That way, us sysadmins out there are a bit safer from html rendering and javascript security holes.
But since the Mozilla and Thunderbird MUAs have defaulted to sending HTML mail for a long time (even before Apple Mail came into play), I don't expect too much sensitivity for the issue.
hauke
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David Lesher - 20 Oct 2006 14:33 GMT >But since the Mozilla and Thunderbird MUAs have defaulted to sending >HTML mail for a long time (even before Apple Mail came into play), I >don't expect too much sensitivity for the issue. Yahoo Lists has a HTML-stripper. Mail sent through it comes out plaintext. I wish I could easily do the same on lists I run elsewhere..
I think I have TBird sending ASCII only, but it takes several settings.
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Hauke Fath - 20 Oct 2006 15:18 GMT > >But since the Mozilla and Thunderbird MUAs have defaulted to sending > >HTML mail for a long time (even before Apple Mail came into play), I > >don't expect too much sensitivity for the issue. > > I think I have TBird sending ASCII only, but it takes several settings. There are two settings: The first, a global one, sets what to do wrt. the format of incoming mails (reply in HTML only, same as incoming, plaintext only). The second one, per account, selects the format of a new mail.
This can be changed. But settings in the Mozilla family have traditionally been confusing; Aunt Mary will not find her way through them, and stick with the HTML mail default.
That's pure marketing, and it sucks.
hauke
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