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Mac Forum / Applications / Eudora / October 2006



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What features do we like about Eudora?

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David Morrison - 17 Oct 2006 06:01 GMT
I have been using Eudora for many years, and have come to rely on its
features, many of which have no equivalent in other mail clients.

Now the Penelope project is saying they want input on what features we
(the users) regard as most important. It might be worth compiling a
combined list of features to guide them in their work. Even if they
cannot provide all these features in the first release, it will allow
them to plan the implementation so as to be able to include them later.

So here is a starting point, in no particular order - except for the
first one!! If you want to add items, please consider including a brief
description of why you see it as important.

* Mac-like interface, ie, uses Mac conventions in window layout and
themes, menu names, popup menu behaviour, etc. (And for many of us long
term users, some of the OS X features should be optional, eg, drawers.
They can be there, but the interface should have alternate "traditional"
ways to do the same thing.)

* Fast operation

* Fast search (not Spotlight!)

* Separate windows for mailbox lists and messages

* Good support for personalities, especially that many things are
configurable on a per personality basis rather than globally

* Powerful filtering (although it has to be said that while the current
filter dialogues work, they are a little cumbersome if you have lots of
filters. Some way of grouping related filters would be wonderful.)

* Ability to label messages with colours and text. (I use this to flag
messages that need further action, are a note to help me find them in
future, or are related to a particular project.)

* Ability to change the Subject of a received message so as to make it
more meaningful so it can be found more easily

* Ability to have stationery and signatures selectable by personality,
and to override them for individual messages

* Support for POP and IMAP

* Recipient lists

* Good junk mail filtering

* Hierarchical mailbox structure, ie, mailboxes within folders within
folders...

* Ability to queue mail before sending (I have often written a message
and clicked on send, to realise a few minutes later that I should have
included something else, or been a little more temperate in my choice of
words. Queueing messages gives me some time to change a message before
it gets out of my control.)

* Auto-complete nicknames, and do this immediately

* Ability to select which columns are displayed in a mailbox window.
(Would be nice to be able to rearrange the columns too!)

* Ability to read mail as plain text, ie, not HTML, and to send mail as
plain text.

* Many, many of the configuration options such as the Moving Around and
Getting Attention settings.

* Comprehensive logging options (The logging has allowed me to solve
various strange behaviours over the years.)

* Desktop margins, ie, making windows leave space for the dock or other
items on the desktop

* Deleting duplicate messages

* Smart paste, ie, pasting attributions before text from another message

* Hide boring headers

* Threading (Would be great if it were possible to put checking mail
into separate threads so all accounts were not held up by one having
problems.)

* Authenticated HTTP proxy support

* Spell checking, including the autocorrect dictionary from Adam Engst,
and availablity of dictionaries for dialects of English and other
languages

* Ability to increase or decrease quoting level while composing a
message, and to paste text as a quote.

Note that there will be seemingly contradictory features in a combined
list, eg, some people *love* three-paned interfaces, while others run a
mile from them. This should not be taken to be a fight for which one
gets implemented. It should really be considered that the developers
need to provide a choice of window metaphor to make everyone happy.

If there are a lot of extra suggestions, I will try to compile them into
a single list from time to time.

Cheers

David
David Morrison - 17 Oct 2006 06:26 GMT
> So here is a starting point, in no particular order - except for the
> first one!! If you want to add items, please consider including a brief
> description of why you see it as important.

One critical one for my workflow....

* When new mail is received, all the mailboxes that messages have been
filtered into open and remain open until I have dealt with the messages.
This way I don't forget them.

David
Bernd Fröhlich - 17 Oct 2006 08:37 GMT
> If there are a lot of extra suggestions, I will try to compile them into
> a single list from time to time.

Here is one of my favorites:

-Keep mail but trash the attachments. (Sometimes I get mail with huge
attachments. I want to copy the attachments to another place and do
something with them, then trash them. I still want to keep the mails but
not the attachments.)
Tim Streater - 17 Oct 2006 09:43 GMT
In article
<davidmor-55C8FA.15013517102006@eth00.pnews.internode.on.net>,

> So here is a starting point, in no particular order - except for the
> first one!! If you want to add items, please consider including a brief
> description of why you see it as important.

I keep all mail relating to a particular topic in its own mailbox - both
incoming and outgoing. The facts therefore that:

1) I can get a copy saved automatically to a particular mailbox (or more
than one)

2) MOST IMPORTANTLY, Eudora has a "Who" column instead of separate
"From" and "To" columns, is crucial. The "Who" column show who mail is
sent to (for sent mail) or who mail is from (for received mail).

-- tim
David Morrison - 17 Oct 2006 14:05 GMT
> So here is a starting point, in no particular order - except for the
> first one!! If you want to add items, please consider including a brief
> description of why you see it as important.

* Option/click in a field in the mailbox window and it groups all
messages with the same field value.

David
Rifty - 17 Oct 2006 14:56 GMT
> So here is a starting point, in no particular order - except for the
> first one!! If you want to add items, please consider including a brief
> description of why you see it as important.

Its ability to sort mail in as mailbox quickly and painlessly is handy,
in that you can switch very quickly from viewing the latest emails to
all those from one person or subject - and back again!  with just two
clicks.

Rifty
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Sandy Foster - 17 Oct 2006 15:10 GMT
In article
<davidmor-55C8FA.15013517102006@eth00.pnews.internode.on.net>,

> I have been using Eudora for many years, and have come to rely on its
> features, many of which have no equivalent in other mail clients.
[quoted text clipped - 101 lines]
>
> David

Great list, David! I can't think of anything you haven't mentioned and
that I'd like to see! <G>
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Norbert Lieckfeldt - 17 Oct 2006 19:10 GMT
> Great list, David! I can't think of anything you haven't mentioned and
> that I'd like to see! <G>

I'd like to be able to save outgoing messages in plain text, and in my
IMAP "sent items" folder. Haven't yet found a way to do either...

N.
Kathy Morgan - 18 Oct 2006 23:55 GMT
> I'd like to be able to save outgoing messages in plain text, and in my
> IMAP "sent items" folder. Haven't yet found a way to do either...

Does "Save as..." not work with IMAP?  (It may be that I'm
misunderstanding what you want to do.)

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Bill Cole - 19 Oct 2006 01:00 GMT
> > I'd like to be able to save outgoing messages in plain text, and in my
> > IMAP "sent items" folder. Haven't yet found a way to do either...
>
> Does "Save as..." not work with IMAP?  (It may be that I'm
> misunderstanding what you want to do.)

IMAP is intrinsically a server-centric protocol. Messages remain on the
server so that they can be accessed by multiple clients from multiple
locations, in a hierarchical folder/mailbox tree. A common feature of
IMAP mailbox storage hierarchies is a "Sent Items" mailbox that contains
sent mail, the analog of a POP client's (i.e. Eudora's) "Out" mailbox.

A really strong IMAP client (i.e. NOT EUDORA, at least not yet) would
let the user define which IMAP mailboxes should be used for common
functions such as Trash, Drafts, Sent Mail, and Junk. Because a common
reason for using IMAP is that the user has multiple devices with varying
clients, a client should allow the user to specify which mailbox is
which so that clients which require or prefer specific names for
specific functional mailboxes (e.g. Outlook, Apple Mail) can be
accommodated by the better, more flexible clients (e.g. hopefully
Penelope)

Personally, I stuck to POP3 for a dozen years and dealt with using
multiple devices by having one machine play God with the POP3 mailbox
while other clients carefully never deleted anything. I finally got to
the point where trying IMAP was pretty painless and actually presented
some advantages, and I have found over the past 6 months that Eudora is
a really lame IMAP client. Even with the tight binding of personalities
to mailboxes (I'm working on a detailed writeup of why that's a
problem....) it would make sense for a client to at least optionally
stash mail sent with an IMAP personality in a specified IMAP mailbox
rather than to only keep a copy on the local machine. Eudora doesn't. If
you want to put your sent mail onto the IMAP server sa Sent mail, you
need to rig up filters to do it.

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Norbert Lieckfeldt - 19 Oct 2006 08:34 GMT
> > I'd like to be able to save outgoing messages in plain text, and in my
> > IMAP "sent items" folder. Haven't yet found a way to do either...
>
> Does "Save as..." not work with IMAP?  (It may be that I'm
> misunderstanding what you want to do.)

Sorry, probably wasn't entirely clear about this but Bill has responded
to it most eloquently. And when sending messages, Eudora inserts
formatting tags that other clients can't translate and which show up if
you access your sent mail folder with another client.

N.
Tim Streater - 17 Oct 2006 16:30 GMT
In article
<davidmor-55C8FA.15013517102006@eth00.pnews.internode.on.net>,

> I have been using Eudora for many years, and have come to rely on its
> features, many of which have no equivalent in other mail clients.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> They can be there, but the interface should have alternate "traditional"
> ways to do the same thing.)

Actually, apropos of this, are we talking about the Mac version in
particular? I use Eudora 7.1 at work and 6.latest at home. Mac fiend tho
I am, I have to say I prefer to use 7.1 because for the Mac version we
need:

1) Fast searching

2) The palette needs to be able to float - having it anchored in one of
two places is a bit limiting

3) There is some talk of a 32k mails limit for the Mac version (dunno if
this is true or not) which should be lifted if so. (Note: I have 46,000
mails in my Trash at work - I keep a years worth).

4) I in fact like the fact that I can dock the various items together -
for simplicity I use Eudora/XP with one large window that I can move
around together, containing a mailbox listing, the preview pane, the
button bar, and the mailbox pane. Not a Mac way perhaps of doing things
but most convenient for me. Flexibility here is the key. I can adjust
the relative size of these items, which one can't do with the OS-X
drawer.

-- tim
Kwan Yeoh - 18 Oct 2006 11:45 GMT
> 2) The palette needs to be able to float - having it anchored in one of
> two places is a bit limiting

The only problem I might see here is that the windows must not be
allowed to slip underneath the palette, if it is docked against a
sidewall of the monitor.

> 4) I in fact like the fact that I can dock the various items together -
> for simplicity I use Eudora/XP with one large window that I can move
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the relative size of these items, which one can't do with the OS-X
> drawer.

I guess flexibility is the key. I hate the three-pane view.

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Julian Y. Koh - 17 Oct 2006 17:00 GMT
The #1 feature of Mac Eudora: <x-eudora-setting:319=32>

:)

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Kathy Morgan - 20 Oct 2006 07:28 GMT
> The #1 feature of Mac Eudora: <x-eudora-setting:319=32>

Until you reminded me, I'd been forgetting to try that setting.  Now my
Mac keeps saying, "You're a kook! You're a kook!"  :-)

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Corentin Cras-Méneur - 17 Oct 2006 19:51 GMT
> * Fast search (not Spotlight!)

On this specific point: I would agree that searches in Eudora are
incredibly fast. I would still like Spotlight integration to be able to
find all my e-mails from Spotlight as well...

[...]
> * Spell checking, including the autocorrect dictionary from Adam Engst,
> and availablity of dictionaries for dialects of English and other
> languages

Though when you wite e-mails in more than one language, the current
scheme is a bit of a pain. You have to enable all dictionaries together
instead of being able to switch between languages. I'm not delighted to
have both French and US dictionaries used at the same time for all my
e-mails.

In addition to what I like in Eudora, there is the list of things I
*would* like in Eudora.
It's pretty easy to start it... list all the new features we were
supposed to get in version 7 :-\
- (WebKit - but we'll get Gecko instead. That's OK)
- S/MIME (Thunderbird supports it, but not throught he Keychaina and the
X509 anchors)
- Spotlight
- system address book real integration
...

Corentin
Steve W. Jackson - 17 Oct 2006 21:38 GMT
> > * Fast search (not Spotlight!)
>
> On this specific point: I would agree that searches in Eudora are
> incredibly fast. I would still like Spotlight integration to be able to
> find all my e-mails from Spotlight as well...
>  

Perhaps I'm missing something...Spotlight *did* search my Eudora
mailboxes until I added them to its Privacy list so that it wouldn't.
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Sander Tekelenburg - 18 Oct 2006 05:19 GMT
[...]

> Perhaps I'm missing something...Spotlight *did* search my Eudora
> mailboxes until I added them to its Privacy list so that it wouldn't.

But when you opened a result, you opened the mailbox and still had to
manually hunt down the specific message.

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Kathy Morgan - 18 Oct 2006 23:55 GMT
> Perhaps I'm missing something...Spotlight *did* search my Eudora
> mailboxes until I added them to its Privacy list so that it wouldn't.

I have not been able to do that.  I did add the Eudora folder to the
privacy list, but doing so had no affect; Spotlight still throws up half
a dozen mailboxes every time I do a search.

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David Lesher - 19 Oct 2006 15:05 GMT
Need:

    Ability to read messages in plain text. I really like the fact
    I can totally eschew ever sending mail that's not ASCII.

    Keystroke to take current message screen, and start your chosen
    external editor, with said text. When you exit it, the result is
    back in Eudora. This will let you easily use a real editor [be it BBBedit,
    Textedit even err TECO...] with powerful features you need.

    When you POP mail down, a X-header that timestamps when it arrives.
    {To help resolve "Mail is slow" whining...}

Have/Like

    Lots of things, but overall, its consistency...
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Sander Tekelenburg - 18 Oct 2006 05:43 GMT
In article
<davidmor-55C8FA.15013517102006@eth00.pnews.internode.on.net>,

[...]

> * Powerful filtering (although it has to be said that while the current
> filter dialogues work, they are a little cumbersome if you have lots of
> filters. Some way of grouping related filters would be wonderful.)

A method to change the view of the filter list (filter the filters)
could be useful. OTOH, if filters would allow more than just 2 rules
you'd need fewer filters to begin with...

Allowing filters to trigger scripts would be good too.

[...]

> * Ability to select which columns are displayed in a mailbox window.
> (Would be nice to be able to rearrange the columns too!)

Yes. Rearranging columns would be good. Especially for Voice Over users.

Some things I find missing in your list:

- Good AppleScript support (meaning better than in current Eudora)
- 'Smart Mailboxes' (you can do that now in Eudora, but some of it still
requires manual action)
- Sorting by References
- Unicode support
- user-configurable presentation of f=f messages (a simple
implementation might be through User Style Sheets, given that Gecko
appears to be the rendering engine)
- possibility to seemlessly use an external editor could be nice
- fail-safe way to disable interpretation of non-text (HTML, javascript,
etc.) -- in this sense I'm worried about the Gecko aspect of Penelope
- no doubt a million other things available in Eudora today that have
grown on me so much I don't even think about them anymore

Absolutely essential to me will be that it is not just 'Mac-like', but
also integrates well with system technologies (Keychain, AppleScript,
LaunchServices, etc.), which usually is far from the case with
cross-platform apps...

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David M. Nieporent - 19 Oct 2006 07:26 GMT
>So here is a starting point, in no particular order - except for the
>first one!! If you want to add items, please consider including a brief
>description of why you see it as important.

A very good list.  A few additions or comments...

>* Mac-like interface, ie, uses Mac conventions in window layout and
>themes, menu names, popup menu behaviour, etc. (And for many of us long
>term users, some of the OS X features should be optional, eg, drawers.
>They can be there, but the interface should have alternate "traditional"
>ways to do the same thing.)

>* Fast operation

>* Fast search (not Spotlight!)

100% yes.  Maybe 1000% yes.  I've been stuck using the various flavors of
Outlook, OE, Thunderbird at times in the past, on PC and Mac, and searching
a few hundred messages can take longer than searching tens of thousands of
messages on Eudora.  *Don't* change that, just for some trendy Spotlight
integration.  I want to search emails _within_ my email program.

>* Separate windows for mailbox lists and messages

100% yes, again!  I don't want panes.  I want to have multiple mailboxes
open when i want, and I want to have as many message windows open as I
choose.  

And I love having all the mailboxes with new messages open when I get them.  
It's so much nicer than the paned approach of marking the mailboxes that
have unread messages in them.

>* Good support for personalities, especially that many things are
>configurable on a per personality basis rather than globally

And allowing us to assign personalities to messages with filters, so that
we can respond properly to a message without having to manually change
those settings.

>* Powerful filtering (although it has to be said that while the current
>filter dialogues work, they are a little cumbersome if you have lots of
>filters. Some way of grouping related filters would be wonderful.)

Grouping would be very good.  It would be nice to be able to have more than
two criteria per filter, also.

You know, as I go down the list, I want to say yes to everything, so I
won't do that.  I agree with everything I've deleted, and I'll just leave
in the ones I have comments about.

>* Ability to queue mail before sending (I have often written a message
>and clicked on send, to realise a few minutes later that I should have
>included something else, or been a little more temperate in my choice of
>words. Queueing messages gives me some time to change a message before
>it gets out of my control.)

And the related ability to schedule that mail to be sent whenever, at any
time in the future.  I use it for reminders for myself and others all the
time.

>* Hide boring headers

More importantly, allowing us to *pick* which headers are "boring" and
which aren't.  I don't want a developer deciding which headers I'm
interested in; I want to decide.  And allowing us to toggle between all
headers/some headers easily, rather than burying that ridiculously deep in
some menu (the way OE does.)

>Note that there will be seemingly contradictory features in a combined
>list, eg, some people *love* three-paned interfaces, while others run a
>mile from them. This should not be taken to be a fight for which one
>gets implemented. It should really be considered that the developers
>need to provide a choice of window metaphor to make everyone happy.

Yes.  The sheer number of options in Eudora's settings absolutely dwarfs
the number in any other mail client with which I'm familiar.  Keep that.  
That's the whole reason to use it.

>If there are a lot of extra suggestions, I will try to compile them into
>a single list from time to time.
Jon - 19 Oct 2006 11:42 GMT
> You know, as I go down the list, I want to say yes to everything, so I
> won't do that.

AOL ;-))
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Julian Y. Koh - 19 Oct 2006 20:42 GMT
Bringing back PGP integration would be nice.  I realize that this was due as
much to actions of the PGP group as those of Qualcomm/Eudora, but it still
would be nice to bring back.  The proxied network connection method of the
present PGP 9.x product is not really sufficient.

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Hauke Fath - 20 Oct 2006 11:06 GMT
> Bringing back PGP integration would be nice.  I realize that this was due as
> much to actions of the PGP group as those of Qualcomm/Eudora, but it still
> would be nice to bring back.  The proxied network connection method of the
> present PGP 9.x product is not really sufficient.

While you mention that -- is there any way of using Eudora Light with
GnuPG? The AppppleScripts at

       http://mywebpages.comcast.net/chang/EudoraGPG/

appear to use a "Scripts" menu that the light Eudora does not have. Any
workaround for that?

       hauke

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Julian Y. Koh - 20 Oct 2006 22:15 GMT
> While you mention that -- is there any way of using Eudora Light with
> GnuPG?

I'm not sure.  I tried GnuPG a bit here and there, but it really likes doing
things with Unix linefeed characters, which Eudora doesn't get along well
with.

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Hauke Fath - 24 Oct 2006 10:34 GMT
> > While you mention that -- is there any way of using Eudora Light with
> > GnuPG?
>
> I'm not sure.  I tried GnuPG a bit here and there, but it really likes doing
> things with Unix linefeed characters, which Eudora doesn't get along well
> with.

Hm. So, what PGP thing is there for Eudora on Macintosh?

The pgp.com web pages list the Windows version of Eudora as supported
for PGP 9.5, but not the Mac version. A big advantage of Thunderbird is
the smooth gpg integration through Enigmail.

       hauke

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Sander Tekelenburg - 26 Oct 2006 07:27 GMT
[...]

> The pgp.com web pages list the Windows version of Eudora as supported
> for PGP 9.5, but not the Mac version.

The word "supported" has lost its meaning. (My guess is that today's
meaning is they don't offer a PGP plug-in or Eudora.)

PGP works with any text app that suports the Services menu, which
includes Eudora.

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Klaus Hereth - 20 Oct 2006 13:21 GMT
One very important setting:

Styled Text -> When receiving styled mail, pay attention to:

I removed the checks for Font and Size and this makes me an extremely
satisfied user of this aged piece of software.

I am not switching to any application that does not have this setting.

Greets,

Klaus

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Hauke Fath - 20 Oct 2006 13:53 GMT
> One very important setting:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I am not switching to any application that does not have this setting.

What is missing, though, from both Eudora (discussed here recently) and
Thunderbird (AFAICS), is a way of picking the text/plain MIME section of
a mail.

That is, do not render text/html minus the markup that the user
de-selected (and, adding insult to injury, drop the text/plain section
without comment, like Eudora does it). Instead, go with text/plain
_always_, avoiding the rendering engine bugs 'du jour.' If there is
nothing but text/html (can you say 'AOL 8'?), then make up a text/plain
version on the fly.

That way, us sysadmins out there are a bit safer from html rendering and
javascript security holes.

But since the Mozilla and Thunderbird MUAs have defaulted to sending
HTML mail for a long time (even before Apple Mail came into play), I
don't expect too much sensitivity for the issue.

       hauke

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David Lesher - 20 Oct 2006 14:33 GMT
>But since the Mozilla and Thunderbird MUAs have defaulted to sending
>HTML mail for a long time (even before Apple Mail came into play), I
>don't expect too much sensitivity for the issue.

Yahoo Lists has a HTML-stripper. Mail sent through it comes out plaintext.
I wish I could easily do the same on lists I run elsewhere..

I think I have TBird sending ASCII only, but it takes several settings.

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Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Hauke Fath - 20 Oct 2006 15:18 GMT
> >But since the Mozilla and Thunderbird MUAs have defaulted to sending
> >HTML mail for a long time (even before Apple Mail came into play), I
> >don't expect too much sensitivity for the issue.
>
> I think I have TBird sending ASCII only, but it takes several settings.

There are two settings: The first, a global one, sets what to do wrt.
the format of incoming mails (reply in HTML only, same as incoming,
plaintext only). The second one, per account, selects the format of a
new mail.

This can be changed. But settings in the Mozilla family have
traditionally been confusing; Aunt Mary will not find her way through
them, and stick with the HTML mail default.

That's pure marketing, and it sucks.

       hauke
       
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