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Mac Forum / Programming / CodeWarrior / June 2005Freescale, MW and Eclipse ...
http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/eclipse-dsdp/index.html How does Freescale participation in this newly started Eclipse project ("embedded development") bode well for a long term survival of MW as such? Borland quoted, in their recsent SEC filling, the "threat of open-source IDEs such as Eclipse" to their revenue model, acknowledging a sharp drop in sales of their JBuilder IDE... I'd love to see a a competitive CW10, but does it make any sense now that MW has been attacked left (Apple drops PPC) and right (Freescale joins the Eclipse foundation) ? If MW is not about building truly gorgeous IDEs, what is it about then? Not compilers per se, right: we, in Mac land, have been waiting way too long for a G5 code gen that never materialized ? Not about IDEs anymore: an IDE that still doesn't understand about the _process_ of code development: refactoring, instant information access, high level diagrams of the code, and on, and on,... and hasn't been updated once in three years, while, at the same time, the Eclipse project started from scratch ... If Freescale, now an Eclipse member, plans to use Eclipse as the IDE for their target processors, where does MW still fit in that picture? So, really, what is MW about, these days? I'd love to hear an "RDF" like answer, some bold annoucement that would surprise everyone and leave most of us in awe as to its ingenuity, but I'm not sure why, I'm not excatly holding my breath ... -- JFB > http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/eclipse-dsdp/index.html > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sense now that MW has been attacked left (Apple drops PPC) > and right (Freescale joins the Eclipse foundation) ? Not IMHO. Eclipse is beyond the resources of most players to compete with. > If MW is not about building truly gorgeous IDEs, what is it > about then? Focusing on other embedded? I dunno. It was always a precarious niche, especially since they have always competed against vendor toolkits (often free). > Not compilers per se, right: we, in Mac land, have been waiting > way too long for a G5 code gen that never materialized ? gcc 4.x bodes well for improvements across the code gen board. :-) That includes x86, which is now of more strategic importance, obviously. > ... > > I'd love to hear an "RDF" like answer, some bold annoucement > that would surprise everyone and leave most of us in awe as > to its ingenuity, but I'm not sure why, I'm not excatly holding my > breath ... I don't think there is a FUD or RDF answer. My advice is to download Eclipse - I love it - or start getting familiar with Xcode 2.1. :-) --Toby > -- > JFB > So, really, what is MW about, these days? Many, many years ago I bought a hard drive from a company in California. It died right before the warranty expired, so I called them, and they said to return it for repair or replacement. I did so. When I called after a week or two to check on the status of the drive, I got a message saying they were closed for Christmas vacation. In fact, I got that message for weeks. Eventually the truth came out that they'd closed their doors, gone out of business, and left that vacation message on their answering machine. MW reminds me of that company. Ron reminds me of that machine. ;-) Larry > > So, really, what is MW about, these days? > > ... > > MW reminds me of that company. Ron reminds me of that machine. ;-) For all the company's faults, Ron does put a lot in, and lets some pretty hot flames slide off. See his patient reply below. I know I've got help from not only direct answers but also the small "knowledgebase" he's contributed to Usenet over the years :-) Any Google search on CW related topics will find a lot of his input. Believe me there are *much* worse company reps on public forums. --Toby > Larry MWRon rates high marks with me too. If you look back in time on the newsgroups, you'll see Ron weighing in on issues almost from the beginning. He genuinely tries to help everyone he can, and as far as I am concerned he's aces in my book. There are a lot of angry words flying around toward Metrowerks (deservedly so, I might add), and Ron being its representative takes the flames (which is of course what he is paid to do). But it is important to distinguish between the man and his employer when you get to the personal attacks. I have no problem laying into Ron about how lousy his employer is acting. Frankly, I think he knows it all too well, and I suspect that he feels much the same way about it that many of us do. However, he can't really say anything about it, he can only pass our remarks up the chain. Ron's a good man. His employer however has gone from Jekyll to Hyde. So yell at Ron all you want about how Metrowerks is screwing us. But remember that Metrowerks is screwing Ron as well...he doesn't have the power to help us and his company is hanging him out to dry to receive all the flames about CodeWarrior. I'm not saying stop flaming. The flames are deserved. Let's just not make it personal. Off the Soapbox, Jonathan Hoyle > http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/eclipse-dsdp/index.html > > How does Freescale participation in this newly started Eclipse > project ("embedded development") bode well for a long term > survival of MW as such? I found no mention of Freescale on that page. What have I missed? <snip> > If MW is not about building truly gorgeous IDEs, what is it > about then? An IDE doesn't have to be gorgeous - it just needs to enable you to get your work done with the minimum of fuss. Call me a reactionary, but I've never seen an IDE as flexible and replete with possibilities as Emacs together with various Unix tools. > Not compilers per se, right: we, in Mac land, have been waiting > way too long for a G5 code gen that never materialized ? Well, I think the IBM XL PowerPC compiler gives the best results on the G5, if you've got the money to spare: <http://www-306.ibm.com/software/awdtools/xlcpp/features/> You can also use it with the Fortran IDE from Absoft. <http://www.absoft.com/Products/Compilers/C_C%2B%2B/XLC/XLC.html> > Not about IDEs anymore: an IDE that still doesn't understand > about the _process_ of code development: refactoring, instant > information access, high level diagrams of the code, and on, > and on,... and hasn't been updated once in three years, while, > at the same time, the Eclipse project started from scratch ... You may well be right: the future of development tools may well lie in the Open Source arena. I tried Eclipse and wasn't impressed, but then, maybe I didn't try hard enough. One disadvantage may be that the performance of Apple's JVM is less than stellar. > If Freescale, now an Eclipse member, plans to use Eclipse > as the IDE for their target processors, where does MW still fit > in that picture? > > So, really, what is MW about, these days? It started as a supplier of development tools for the Apple Macintosh platform, and it was extremely successful, though it probably didn't earn its originators a lot of money. Since then, they seem to have lost their way, at least in business terms. I've no idea what Motorola thought they were getting when they acquired Metrowerks, but in any case, it's pretty clear that things haven't worked out so far. > I'd love to hear an "RDF" like answer, some bold annoucement > that would surprise everyone and leave most of us in awe as > to its ingenuity, but I'm not sure why, I'm not excatly holding my > breath ... The real RDF is patented by Steven P. Jobs, Esq. Beware of cheap imitations. Alwyn > You may well be right: the future of development tools may well lie in > the Open Source arena. I tried Eclipse and wasn't impressed, but then, > maybe I didn't try hard enough. One disadvantage may be that the > performance of Apple's JVM is less than stellar. This is more second-hand, but apparently the Eclipse GUI is typical Unix crud, but it has some really powerful tools that more than make up for it. > > You may well be right: the future of development tools may well lie in > > the Open Source arena. I tried Eclipse and wasn't impressed, but then, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > This is more second-hand, but apparently the Eclipse GUI is typical Unix > crud, but it has some really powerful tools that more than make up for it. You should try using it yourself. You'll find it's a very slick interface, that I have come to prefer to other IDEs. --T > > > You may well be right: the future of development tools may well lie in > > > the Open Source arena. I tried Eclipse and wasn't impressed, but then, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You should try using it yourself. You'll find it's a very slick > interface, that I have come to prefer to other IDEs. Can it be used to build C++ Carbon application? >>>> You may well be right: the future of development tools may well lie in >>>> the Open Source arena. I tried Eclipse and wasn't impressed, but then, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Can it be used to build C++ Carbon application? Yep. -- JFB > >>>> You may well be right: the future of development tools may well lie in > >>>> the Open Source arena. I tried Eclipse and wasn't impressed, but then, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Yep. How do you do UI stuffs with it? Does it work with Interface Builder? >>>>>> You may well be right: the future of development tools may well lie in >>>>>> the Open Source arena. I tried Eclipse and wasn't impressed, but then, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > How do you do UI stuffs with it? Does it work with Interface Builder? If by "working with" you mean "explicitely knows about" then the answer is no. But if you mean: allows you to use nib files from Carbon/Cocoa code, well yes, it does. To some extent, Interface Builder is no "more" integrated into Xcode than it is into Eclipse (except for the fact that you can launch IB from within Xcode, whereas you can't from Eclipse) Since CDT relies on the very same exact toolchain that is provided with Xcode, anything you can build with Xcode, you can build with CDT. Though it is not necessarily simpler in CDT :-( But once you have set-up your project (which might involve some trial and error, to say the least), off you go. The surrounding C++ tools (refactoring/hierarchy view/searching) are not yet up to par with their Java counterpart (JDT), but given the amount of catch-up I've seen in the past few month on the CDT front, I wouldn't be too surprised if the official CDT 3.0, due in the coming weeks, was to definitely plug that hole ... -- JFB >> If MW is not about building truly gorgeous IDEs, what is it >> about then? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > never seen an IDE as flexible and replete with possibilities as Emacs > together with various Unix tools. No, an IDE doesn't have to be gorgeous, intuitive, or easy to use. However, an IDE that *is* gorgeous, intuitive, and easy to use makes my time with it more pleasant and it is more accessible to newbies who would find a box of tools like "Emacs together with various Unix tools" difficult to learn and use. Not every developer (or user) wants or is comfortable with the Unix way of doing things. If that were not the case then Unix would be the dominant OS and Bill Gates would have had to get a real job a long time ago. Too many people in the developer tool arena don't get this. They think everyone writing software loves command line interfaces or applications that are hard-to-learn and use, or that all we care about is power. Some even *prefer* tools that are hard to use so they can feel more elite in their ability to use clunky, unintuitive tools with which others struggle. Not me. If I drove a truck for a living, I'd want air conditioning, an nice audio system, a hands free cell phone, a cooler, and even a DVD player for long trips. Not because I *need* any of those things to drive a truck, but because as long as I'm going to be driving, the experience might as well be as pleasant as I can make it. So it is with my IDE, and I dare say I'm not the only one. I'm inclined to believe that if we only have tools with bare-bones interfaces, we'll tend to get developers who place less importance on interfaces and that can't be good for the platform. Larry >Not every developer (or user) wants or is comfortable with the Unix way >of doing things. If that were not the case then Unix would be the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >interfaces, we'll tend to get developers who place less importance on >interfaces and that can't be good for the platform. I prefer to think of it like the novel "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence". Since the UNIX tools make you think about each part of your program, you are more aware of each part of your program and how they work together. This isn't for everyone, but it's what I like. -Greg > I prefer to think of it like the novel "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle > Maintenence". [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -Greg That's very honourable, but then what are you doing in this ng? Probly not for the command line tools that MW used to provide ... -- JFB >That's very honourable, but then what are you doing in this ng? >Probly not for the command line tools that MW used to provide ... I used to work for MW and Apple with java, so I have a professional interest. You know how everyone slows down to look at a wreck on the highway? I kind of feel like that. <http://www.yofixie.com/pics/murcielago.JPG> >I prefer to think of it like the novel "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle >Maintenence". Does this mean you have to have a lobotomy to enjoy it? Ron  SignatureMetrowerks Community Forum is a free online resource for developers to discuss CodeWarrior topics with other users and Metrowerks' staff -- http://www.metrowerks.com/community -- Ron Liechty - MWRon@metrowerks.com - http://www.metrowerks.com >> I prefer to think of it like the novel "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle >> Maintenence". > > Does this mean you have to have a lobotomy to enjoy it? > > Ron One thing I've always thought true: I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy! ---Dave > >I prefer to think of it like the novel "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle > >Maintenence". > > Does this mean you have to have a lobotomy to enjoy it? OK, I can't resist any longer. Are you confusing Pirsig's fine book* with Kesey's "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest"? --Toby *And if you liked "Zen", try his later "Lila, An Enquiry into Morals": http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=pirsig&y=0&tn=lila&x=0 > Ron > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ron Liechty - MWRon@metrowerks.com - http://www.metrowerks.com >> >I prefer to think of it like the novel "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle >> >Maintenence". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >OK, I can't resist any longer. Are you confusing Pirsig's fine book* >with Kesey's "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest"? As I recall it (haveing read the book back in the 70's, the story is about a man who was psychotic and had a lobotomy after which he takes a motorcycle trip trying to restore his passions and understand what love is, what was good, what was bad. Ron >*And if you liked "Zen", try his later "Lila, An Enquiry into Morals": >http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=pirsig&y=0&tn=lila&x=0 SignatureMetrowerks Community Forum is a free online resource for developers to discuss CodeWarrior topics with other users and Metrowerks' staff -- http://www.metrowerks.com/community -- Ron Liechty - MWRon@metrowerks.com - http://www.metrowerks.com > >> >I prefer to think of it like the novel "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle > >> >Maintenence". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > motorcycle trip trying to restore his passions and understand what love > is, what was good, what was bad. The psychosis references must be oblique; I had forgotten that aspect. The text is online: http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/Quality/PirsigZen/ http://bonigv.tripod.com/ George Steiner from his fascinating 1974 review: "A father and his child are riding through night and wind, enigmatically pursued, in receipt of eerie solicitations that seem to tear at the boy's soul. ... Chris perceives that his father has, at some dread point in the past, been out of his mind, literally ecstatic, as are the daemonically inhabited. The remembrance of a glass wall, in some hospital long ago, overwhelms him. ... It is a book about the diverse orders of relation - wasteful, obtuse, amateurish, peremptory, utilitarian, insightful - which connect modern man to his mechanical environment." [http://www.mrbauld.com/steiner.html] > Ron > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ron Liechty - MWRon@metrowerks.com - http://www.metrowerks.com > George Steiner from his fascinating 1974 review: "A father and his > child are riding through night and wind, enigmatically pursued, in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > wasteful, obtuse, amateurish, peremptory, utilitarian, insightful - > which connect modern man to his mechanical environment." I'm not a big fan of Steiner, but he did get that approximately right. As for Pirsig, he did spend a period in and out of mental hospitals - depression all too often accompanies creativity, unfortunately. No lobotomy, I'm happy to say, but the ECT seems to have been bad enough. Pirsig's life is just as fascinating as his books. <http://www.psybertron.org/timeline.html> Alwyn > If I drove a truck for a living, I'd > want air conditioning, an nice audio system, a hands free cell phone, a > cooler, and even a DVD player for long trips. Leave it to a geek to concentrate on technical gewgaws at the expense of what matters. If I drove a truck I'd want a double-wide sleeper and a woman. >> If I drove a truck for a living, I'd >> want air conditioning, an nice audio system, a hands free cell phone, a >> cooler, and even a DVD player for long trips. > > Leave it to a geek to concentrate on technical gewgaws at the expense of > what matters. If I drove a truck I'd want a double-wide sleeper and a woman. It's been so long since I met an unattached woman over 35 who wasn't crazy or nearly brain dead I didn't even consider that option. Besides, if I had a double-wide sleeper and a woman, when would I have time to drive the truck? :-) Larry > I'm inclined to believe that if we only have tools with bare-bones > interfaces, we'll tend to get developers who place less importance on > interfaces and that can't be good for the platform. It's worth noting in this context that Apple themselves used MPW (Macintosh Programmer's Workshop), which was based on the traditional Unix software-tools approach, for years and encouraged third-party developers to use it. (It was bundled with CodeWarrior too.) It would be hard to argue that the general standard of Mac application interfaces has improved much since those days. Alwyn > > I'm inclined to believe that if we only have tools with bare-bones > > interfaces, we'll tend to get developers who place less importance on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Unix software-tools approach, for years and encouraged third-party > developers to use it. Not only did they encourage it, it was the #1 environment (except for those who preferred IDEs, which opened a decent sized market for CW). Its MrC and SC compilers are hard to beat for small and fast binaries, and I still use MPW (under Classic) to build my Carbon code. Some build processes you can only do with a makefile. This is where Eclipse (and Xcode, probably) really shines, because it fully supports user-written makefiles. > (It was bundled with CodeWarrior too.) It would be > hard to argue that the general standard of Mac application interfaces > has improved much since those days. > > Alwyn > It's worth noting in this context that Apple themselves used MPW > (Macintosh Programmer's Workshop), which was based on the traditional > Unix software-tools approach, for years and encouraged third-party > developers to use it. (It was bundled with CodeWarrior too.) It would be > hard to argue that the general standard of Mac application interfaces > has improved much since those days. I would argue that they have devolved since those days. Neither CodeWarrior nor XCode come anywhere close to the elegance and power of MPW. It is, without a doubt, the finest development environment I have used in my 30+ years of software devlopment. If it could have spawned processes like Unix it would have been nigh perfect. > ... > MPW. It is, without a doubt, the finest development environment I have > used in my 30+ years of software devlopment. If it could have spawned > processes like Unix it would have been nigh perfect. It was my close friend and companion for the many years during which I could neither afford a UNIX workstation nor get access to one. --T >http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/eclipse-dsdp/index.html > >How does Freescale participation in this newly started Eclipse >project ("embedded development") bode well for a long term >survival of MW as such? Freescale is considering eclipse for the Windows and UNIX hosted IDE, for CodeWarrior compilers and tools. >If MW is not about building truly gorgeous IDEs, what is it >about then? Freescale is about providing the best tools for Freescale Silicon and providing solutions to Freescale Developers. We are committed to providing the best compilers for Freescale Silicon. >If Freescale, now an Eclipse member, plans to use Eclipse >as the IDE for their target processors, where does MW still fit >in that picture? Metrowerks will continue to provide an IDE for Macintosh and Games >So, really, what is MW about, these days? Metrowerks is about Palm, Games, and Desktop developing tools. >I'd love to hear an "RDF" like answer, some bold annoucement >that would surprise everyone and leave most of us in awe as >to its ingenuity, but I'm not sure why, I'm not excatly holding my >breath ... I'll see what I can do. Ron SignatureMetrowerks Community Forum is a free online resource for developers to discuss CodeWarrior topics with other users and Metrowerks' staff -- http://www.metrowerks.com/community -- Ron Liechty - MWRon@metrowerks.com - http://www.metrowerks.com |
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